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((If we're breaking down percentages, I feel the need to break the numbers down even smaller, heh. Out of those few RPers that do enjoy PvP? Not all of them have any interest in attacking at all, be it for ooc or ic reasons. Ra himself certainly has no desire to attack the Alliance, when they'll only use it as an excuse to go "See? We were right all along. They /were/ monsters" and encourage /more/ people to attack his home. It is simply not a logical thing to do, heh, especially when already outnumbered. That and I can't see certain Horde guilds actually working together to do it. The Modas have an interest in attacking, sure, but very few people would ICly work with them, as they're not even technically ICly part of the Horde.

All in all, if you want to be attacked, its not going to happen in the numbers you hope for, in all honesty. Its only a handful of individuals interested, who simply don't have the numbers to last all that long against the near unlimited Alliance resources for backup. The Horde needs warning to create that defense force you mentioned, but the Alliance can honestly just sound the alarms and have that number there, ready and willing, at a moment's call. Quite often do I hear about three or so people facing off against six, only to have five more get mass summoned in a second later, heh.

Ah, fiddlesticks. More posts are being written as I type this. Time to reply to those too.

We do not have more numbers than you realize, Ragefang. We were given warning. We had people go /out of their way/ to be online to actually defend, to even wake up early or schedule things in such a way that they /could/ be there to defend. Time to painstakingly rally the numbers to even rival the numbers Alliance is able to muster. Everything Eslyn said is quite correct, and I imagine he's said it better than I can, heh.))

((I think there may be a misunderstanding of the numbers we can call on for Alliance RP-PvP events. Between differing RL schedules, a plethora of non-PvP RP events scheduled throughout the week (clinics, social events like the Feather Inn, Pia knighting ceremonies, etc.), and people who, IC, are appalled at the things people like Ragefang are willing to do in the name of war, it's honestly a spectacular night when we can get more than 8-10 people in a group. We don't recruit from Trade, because honestly, many of the non-RPers on our realm can be atrocious at times.

While recognizing we aren't a PvP realm, believe it or not, there *is* a method to this madness. The upcoming story in Mists of Pandaria is heavily focused on the Alliance/Horde war, to the point that Blizzard is even considering the expansion cycle to be two different things: the "boxed content", which is the 85-90 stuff on Pandaria, and "the big story" that'll be told through subsequent patches that culminate in the Siege of Orgrimmar, and a collective effort from both factions to remove Garrosh Hellscream entirely (and don't think Rage won't hand out a huge, heaping bowl-full of "I told you so!" when that happens... ;) ). By stirring up world PvP, this provides several opportunities at once: we get people invested in the world itself and acknowledging that, despite attempts at neutral guilds, factions outside the two main ones, and a general urge for peaceful relations, there is a war happening between our two factions. We also hopefully get word out that world PvP isn't dead, and when people hear that it's being instigated and perpetuated by the dedicated RPers on our realm, the very real possibility of getting some new RPers is introduced as well, something I think we can all say we'd like very much. If it takes ongoing assaults on Horde locations to shore up Horde RP, I'm happy to provide that service, but I'm also very keen on getting more Alliance RPers.

As far as scheduling things ahead of time, I'm certainly not averse to it on occasion. The problem arises, as it already has, that preplanning winds up having some occasionally undesirable effects on things. We were initially doing these hits on Friday nights until it was communicated to me that Fridays were largely raid nights for interested Horde participants. After some discussion, it was discovered that Sundays worked better, so I started scheduling the events on Sundays.

The problem arose, however, that it became so predictable that "The Alliance is going to hit us on Sunday nights at 6:00" that we started coming up against entrenched forces ready and waiting for us, resulting in a very quick rout that had some people who were interested in possibly just dipping their toes into some RP-PvP kind of dejectedly concluding it just wasn't for them, and leaving.

I don't want us winning all the time, nor do I want us losing all the time. I want people experiencing a solid push and pull akin to last week's attack on Undercity or the attack that started in Silverpine Forest and moved to Tarren Mill about a month or so ago. Those stand out as high points due to a combination of larger participation and unplanned ebbs and flows in the combat, and the common point in both of those was largely unplanned PvP.

As I said, I don't want to disrupt Horde RP events; I didn't see anything in AllianceOOC last night indicating, at the time of our attack, that we were griefing an event, though it's possible I might have just missed the text. The channel can on occasion move fairly fast. Other times it's completely dead.

Some pre-planned massive RP-PvP events would be very cool. I realize the Alliance outnumbers the Horde on our realm, both for RP and non. I wish I could so something about that. I also realize that not everyone on our respective RP groups wants to PvP; if they did, there's a good chance they'd have rolled on a PvP realm.

I think, however, a balance will have to be struck. The fun, at least for me, is a reactionary thing. I like reacting to Horde attacks, and I like Horde reacting to our attacks. But I think it stops being fun for anyone other than entrenched defenders when they're waiting for us, ready and equipped, buffed, etc. Since we *aren't* a full-time PvP group or realm, sometimes coming up against a wall that we have little chance of really breaking through (we aren't all well-skilled PvPers; we have some, we have others like me who are enthusiastic, but far less skilled; I've never once stepped foot in Arenas, for example) can be discouraging, and that has undesirable long-term effects on keeping this element of our bi-factional RP going.))

(Since...this seems to be turning into a discussion!

/shoos you all off into a new thread. stop hijacking an RP thread for ooc discussion! Rawr!

(( You're.. not getting it, Rage, but Nova's right - apologies to Nynra.

Feel free to contact us in game. ))

((I was typing this before Gen, Nova, and Aro. I'll leave it so it doesn't look like I'm back peddling; however, I apologize for continuing and derailing an RP thread. This is my final post. I'm sorry Nynra. It's my fault this derailed the way it did, and I won't continue it further.

Ragefang:
Since you're not getting it, I'll spell it out again.

We came over, several times, last night to inform the Alliance you'd be attacking during clinic. I recall you even apologized for it, and yet an hour later... here you are, doing it again. Infact, before your War Council even happened last night, people were on the other side, taking part in your AllianceOOC conversation, telling people that Tuesday night is Clinic night. It even says it in the stickied post on the top of the forum that Horde holds Clinic on Tuesday nights.

Event: Da Doctas Clinic
What: Clinic to heal the Horde.
Who: Horde (Hosted by Da Doctas)
When: 7:00 PM Server Time
Where: Near the Portals in Orgrimmar

Here's the link: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1072437309#5
It was posted five months ago.

There is never an entrenched defense, unless you tell us where you're hitting. We send out the entire raid (usually around 17 or so folks) scouting all across the world. When we find a crediable hit on local defense, we scout it out. And if you're there, we summon. When you flee, and don't return... we do it again. And again. And again until you all decide to call it for the evening. We remove people from the raid group who cheat via RealID or friends. We remove people who repeatedly kill rezzers. We don't even invite non-RPers.

Our defense usually takes about an hour and a half or so to get the group we end up with. When you were attacking at 6 ST, we had to start forming the group at like 4:30 to even get more of Razortalons in on it (which there's only about 10 of us total). If you want a defense force, you have to let us know when we need one, or else you're not going to get it.

If you're going to continue to attack during Clinic, we're not even going to bother to respond, as I and several others stated last night. Yes, I am Thaseus, for those who decided to resort to name calling instead of discussion last night (you know who you are). No, Razortalons isn't boycotting or blacklisting anyone. We're just not going to respond to your RP-PVP if that's they way you guys want to play it.))

((I was going to stay out of this fray, but I'd like to add a few things here. We really do understand horde rp and horde rpers are not as strong as alliance. I'm talking numbers here not quality. I also understand it's difficult to raise rp/pvp interest. However, you may have noticed alliance numbers dwindling on the Sunday raids. Let's face it, the horde rp/pvers are simply better than many of the people who answer to call to go out alliance side. We frequently have lower level people or people how have no pvp gear and we allow them simply because it's a rp even not some dungeon raid with ilevels.

Some people simply got tired of getting their butts handed to them repeatedly until the balance reached some kind of decent give and take and stopped coming. Everyone talks about this massive pool of alliance we have to draw from. Alliance also has rl, guild life, kids, school and prior commitments. We also don't really have a huge group of rpers who enjoy pvp. When attacks happen, Pia is often one of the first responders. If we can't bring down the three people attacking with two or three people we try to call in reinforcements. This isn't a war game. It's defense. We'll do what we need to to quell the bells just as horde would. If people want exact numbers to pvp against they then need to do arenas, bgs or wargames. World pvp is never going to be equal unless you have the rare circumstance where we used to fight Steam and we peel off some Pia people from the fight and just let two or three from each side duke it out. At that point it's not defense, it's just good practice and fun.

It really isn't as easy to raise alliance rp/pvpers as some people are making it out to be. I know because I am often the one scouring channels to find people to respond.

I hope this has been resolved ooc for people because I hate to see world pvp degenerate into a debate on the forums all the time.

I've already put out the word Pia won't be attacking during the Clinic again. Rage has already said he wouldn't I'm not sure what more is to be said or how many more times people can apologize before it gets dropped. I'll respond ic to the letter later.))

((Just a nudge that someone created a new topic specifically for this, let's stop overwhelming Nynra's thread, myself included! XD))

Drakehide scowled as he limped his way back towards the tavern, his hand over his mouth as his latest coughing barrage finished. He grumbled, and swore, and shivered. Who'd gone and made it so damn cold, in the Barrens?

Tyrynna had warned him to find a healer, and to get help, but...Drakehide could hardly walk, let alone journey to a larger city to find assistance. He was going to have to either just rough it, or approach a healer when someone finally came by the bar. He had work to do, and he wasn't about to let...whatever this was...get in the way.

As he walked, he passed the bulletin board. The threats issued to the Horde by Nynra Lightheart and Gondorin Ragefang were still on the board. He scowled, about to turn away when...he noticed something he hadn't before. He ripped Nynra's copy down from the board, so that he could get a better look at it. His Alliance common was poor - he only understood fragments of the language - but someone had been kind enough to translate Nynra's note into proper orcish. He read it over a second time, and his eyes went wide.

Drakehide returned to the tavern, with all the haste he could manage in his condition. Coughing all the while, he moved to his usual table and dug parchment and a quill out from behind the bar, where Aminara kept stationary, the till, and other supplies.

Dear Nynra Lightheart,

You have my most sincere apologies, and my respect. My message to you yesterday was unnecessarily crude and harsh. I must admit that I read Ragefang's release first, and when I read yours over I did not give it the attention it deserved. I believed it to be just another Alliance string of threats, justifications, and drivel.

There is honor in what you have done. You are correct - the death of innocents, civilians, is dishonorable, cruel, and wrong. It is something to be avoided at all costs. Let we soldiers fight and die - we know the risks, we are prepared for battle, and willing to put our lives on the line. Civilians have little part in this conflict, and the destruction of homes and civilian settlements...it is unforgiveable.

The Horde is not innocent in this regard - far from it. There is plenty of civilian blood on our hands, and many less than honorable kills. However...of late, unless I am misinformed, we have not been the aggressors. We have not been the ones attacking virtually defenseless settlements.

Clearly, your colleagues do not share your opinion on these things, or share your good sense, but...I credit you, and respect you, for the warning that you have dispatched to us. This is not something I will forget. Consider your warnings minded. I am in close proximity to the Crossroads, and will continue to patrol the areas surrounding it when not otherwise occupied. A watchful eye will be kept on this settlement, at least.

If your opinions should cause you any conflict with your Alliance, know that you have refuge in Ratchet, where we keep a neutral tavern establishment. You would be more than welcome to join us (once we finish cleaning bomb debris and bodies out of the place - don't ask), and I will see that you drink for free.

Again, there is honor in the warning that you have sent us, and in the silent stand that you have taken. You have earned yourself at least one friend and ally in the Horde.

Aka'Magosh - may the spirits be with you,

- Drakehide

P.S. Please give my regards to Ragefang, and advise him on my behalf that he is still more than welcome to go %&$* #%*$ %*$% and %*$$ himself in the %*$# #*%$ murloc %*$& and %*$& %*$@ board with a nail in it %*$$ %*$& @&%# on a %*#@ $@%* sandwich.

((Nynra, I am terribly, terribly sorry that I misread your original letter so grievously, and so is Drake! I was kind of in a rush and on the go all day yesterday, and I should have paid much better attention to your message, and its intent. I will make a stronger effort in the future to be more attentive, and to think before either Drake or I speak. Again, my apologies for the misunderstanding! ^^;))

((Drake! Such language! My ears are burning!

Well written! :D ))

Bralox was sitting at the bar, Across from Drake. "Evening, Son of Ruhk." He murmured, taking a sip of Grog. "You appear to be in some Haste today, something on your mind that a grump of a Shaman can fix?"

Her gaze wandering between Darnassus's magnificent causeways to the Warrior's Terrace and the Temple of the moon, and everything in-between, Kyalin was making her usual vigil, standing just off the path that circled the bank when a panicked, and familiar looking sentinel, carrying a slip of paper approached her from behind. Kyalin glanced for a moment at her visitor "What is it, Tal?"

The sentinel handed the slip of paper forward. "That council you visited... they've been antagonizing the Horde... going out of their way to civilians! They're going to bring reprisals down on us!"

Kyalin grabbed the note, reading it over somewhat casually. "News to me... where did you get this?"

"It was recovered by..."

"Outrunners." Kyalin concluded for her, nodding. "I think I remember this woman... or well... the only person it could have been."

"So it is true then? They are going to bring the Horde's reprisals down upon us... and you stood there and said nothing?"

Making meaningful eye contact with the sentinel for the first time, Kyalin turned around, handing the message back. "Tal'rada, I don't know if you've noticed this, but the Horde already wants every single one of us dead, and are prepared to go to any length to make that happen. They have tortured civilians to death, locked our sisters in cages in the middle of open battlefields to watch them starve, razed entire forests, killed merchants as well, firebombed villages, and killed entire schools filled with nothing more threatening than children, and for what!? Because they won't provide for themselves, and believe that they are fully in the right to kill us for what they don't have. 'Reprisals'? Honestly? You fear the Horde that much that you will just roll over and die when they command you to!?"

"Merchants even, Warden? Even Mulgore?"

Kyalin only nodded. "We are successful in Ashenvale because there isn't a single supply route for the Horde to exercise leading out of that region. They need resources, they put resources into the endeavor, and they are getting none back. The starving masses of Orgrimmar will turn against their warchief if that continues, but that won't happen if the supply lines that our sisters fought and died to close are replaced by goblin businessmen and 'neutral' messengers. For Mulgore: they supply the Horde with soldiers and water, they are by no means removed from this conflict, and they want us all dead too! Same with Silvermoon, same with any settlement that flies a Horde banner."

Kyalin paused for a moment, staring at a frog and shaking her head before she looked back at Tal again. "I don't enjoy taking life. You know that, and you know that I wouldn't do so unless I found it absolutely necessary. I try not to be petty, I don't engage in revenge, but I won't stand by and let them hide people behind a mask of innocence while they kill our people, whether they're the ones holding the axe or supplying the axe."

((Thanks, Rage! OOCly, I'm always up for RP-PvP goodness, and I think you're awesome. As for Drake, ICly...well, I think I summed up his thoughts pretty good, and on a sandwich to boot. xD))

Drakehide opened his mouth to respond to Bralox, when he was seized by another fit of coughing. He raised a handkerchief to his face, coughing into it, and scowling.

"Ah, Bralox..." Drakehide sighed, "Throm'ka. Find out why it's so damn cold in here."

Drakehide shivered and second time and continued mumbling aimlessly for a few moments.

"Ugh, I am sorry, Bralox, my friend...I...am tired. First, there was the attack at the Crossroads...then the attack on the bar...then Eldantios, throwing plague-bombs of Nether-knows what into the tavern...ugh...and it's freezing!"

Drakehide cracked open a flask of Cactus Cider, drank, and wrapped his red and black cloak around himself like a blanket.

"I have a message to deliver to Nynra Lightheart," Drakehide explained, "I sent one ahead yesterday, but...I realized I made a grievous error in my initial message. If you could forward this to - !"

Drakehide coughed again, hoarsely, covering his mouth so as not to spread the...the whatever-it-was ailing him. Oh, Eldantios was SO dead, when Drakehide caught up to him...assuming this cough didn't kill him first. He dug a second message out, and handed it to Bralox.

"Two messages, Bralox," Drakehide requested, "This one to Nynra, and...this one to Tyrynna. They are both urgent. Please...move quickly...I do not wish to leave any business unfinished."

The warrior reclined in his chair, removing the cloak now, and sweating profusely on his brow. He raised the handkerchief to his forehead, drying his skin.

"...now someone find out why it's so damn hot in here..."

((Tyr's letter is on the Homeland forums, or will be when it's complete. xD))

Bralox regarded Drake quietly. "I know of the attack on the Crossroads. "He grin was dangerous. "I am sure they now know of me as well." He nodded, grabbing the letters, he tucked them into the satchel marked for Cross faction Transfer. A second grin appeared on his face. "Drake, I know a way you could cool off.." Without waiting for a reply, Bralox grabbed Drake by the scruff of the neck, carried him outside to the docks, and tossed him into the lake.

((LAWL, LAWL, LAWL.))

"B-Bralox," groaned Drake, still dizzy from illness, "Where are we going - ? Hey - ! Is that the dock? What are you - ? Oh, NOT GLORIOUS! NOT - !"

The next several words were muffled out by the splashing of a son of Rukh wearing full plate being thrown into the sea. Drakehide thrashed around furiously for several seconds, and then crawled out of the ocean, looking somewhat like a disgruntled worg after it had just been bathed.

"Very...funny, Protection Orc," Drakehide grumbled, stomping back towards the tavern, "GLOOOOORIOUSLY funny."

Bralox snickered to himself, before taking off at a run back towards Orgrimmar. several steps in, he shifted into his Wolfen self, running full tilt.

((I wish to make absolutely crystal clear that this in no way reflects my OOC opinion of the organizations and persons named within. This is strictly IC.))

A letter is sent anonymously, but the origin is believed to be somewhere on the Azuremyst island chain off the coast of northern Kalimdor. It is posted by loyal couriers on the Hero's Call board in the Trade District of Stormwind City and at the gates of Mardenholde Keep in Hearthglen.

Let it be known to all interested parties that the so-called "defenders of the Alliance" Gondorin Ragefang and Gentyl Turncutt, and all who associate with them, are war criminals in the eyes of good, Light-fearing people.

The Ebon Sanction is nothing more but a gang of mercenaries and murderers, much as the so-called "Reclamation" was before them. Gondorin Ragefang has been accused multiple times of inflicting unnecessary collateral damage against Horde towns and outposts, including the death of civilians. When he does it against the Horde, it is considered heroic. When the Horde does the same against us in retaliation, it is considered an injustice. It is this fact that makes every word spoken by this mad dog a lie, and every action committed by this mad dog an act of hypocrisy of the highest order.

Likewise, the Pia Presidium is an organization of apostasy against the Light, a so-called knightly order which uses pseudo-religious dogma to justify oppression and indiscriminate slaughter. They believe, as the Scarlet Crusade did, that they are right because they are mighty, and that those who do not agree with them are heretics and traitors. They honestly believe the Light guides them. Meanwhile, Presidium knights openly ride with the murderous mad dog Ragefang, sacking Horde outposts. And their so-called "Sepha" does nothing. She is a hypocrite, a spineless coward, and a traitor, as are all her knights.

In recent days, we have heard greatly of the atrocities committed by groups that fall under the banner of the Horde - groups like the Modas il Toralar, the Razortalons, and the Grim Maw Clan. They are condemned, and rightfully so. But it is the highest order of hypocrisy - and sincere apologies for overusing this word, but it is appropriate - that the Ebon Sanction and the Pia Presidium have both stooped to the level of such organizations, committing acts of what can only be described as terrorism, justifying it as an eye for an eye. Any fool who knows his scripture would know that an eye for an eye leaves the world blind. In this era of an ever-changing landscape, a blinded world is the last thing we need.

Condemn the Ebon Sanction. Condemn the Pia Presidium. They are terrorists, and do not deserve the protection of the Light or the Alliance.

In the name of the fallen.

((And as a note: ICly, the only person who would know that Saavedro is on the Azuremyst Isles is Magdelyn - as he told her so himself. Not even Devaneaux knows 100% for certain where he has gone, only that he has. No one in Conclave knows, either.))

((This... is bloody brilliant, Saavedro. I'm at work right now, but I'll try to have something up at lunch, or this evening. :D ))

Fingering the document lying on her desk, D"Ar Thora pondered the repercussions it represented. The escalation had begun, counter strikes were inevitable and her people were spread too thin far and away too thin. She would have to get word to them, they had to be warned. How this had escalated so quickly she could not yet understand, but they had to prepare. They needed to get more eyes on the target and quickly. She called for an aide then taking quill and vellum wrote out a message for him to carry, sealed it with her personal signet and handed it to him,

"Take this to Brytin, make sure she receives it into her hand and then wait for her reply".

D'Ar Thora turned away and listened as the sound of the aide descending the staircase receded. They had begun the long spiral, she prayed they would somehow survive it.

Folding his arms across his chest, Arothand tips his head to the side, reading over the posted letter with a wary gaze. He glances down to his Crusade tabard, sparing another glance at the letter before shaking his head, muttering under his breath.

"Propaganda in Hearthglen. I'll be damned." The Elf pauses, re-scanning over a couple of sections - particularly the ones that condemn Ragefang and the Presidium. "Amusin' propaganda, but propaganda nonetheless. Puttin' a neutral group like th' 'Talons in th' same league as th' Modas - Modas ain't even Horde. 'Course, all Horde groups are all th' same to 'em, even th' ones who work with th' Crusade, bloody blind bigots..."

Trailing off, murmuring to no one but himself, he reaches up a gloved hand, tearing one of the posters down, making certain to do so with any he sees posted elsewhere in Hearthglen.

He was running out of issues of the Vigilant Times and wanted posters to burn in his firepit, anyways.

The notice by Saavedro caught Lahkin's eye. He asked the courier for his own copy, sticking it in his saddlebags before flying the long way back to Aerie Peak. Once at the Wildhammer stronghold, he kicked aside a chicken, readjusted one of the notices for fighting practice on the bulletin board, then headed down to the common room.

"Erelyn, you better take a look at this..."

Lahkin spread the notice out on the common room table. It was there for all other Terrans to take a look at. Lahkin felt a twinge of irony, that he'd been a part of the order being condemned only a few short months ago. Fate was a funny thing sometimes.

"I'd suggest we take your father, shove him in a box, and ship him off to gods-knows-where until all this is over, but I don't think he'd ever forgive us if we did."

Lahkin looked at her meaningfully, then re-read the notice.

"That is...if he's not actually one of the ones behind all this...Light. What's this world coming to?"