World of Warcraft®

Ok, you will have to forgive me for this rant.... but I'm feeling like its necessary.

Let me just summarize to begin with: if you come into a room, and there are MANY members of all one guild -- many of whom are not flagged -- and there is obvious conversation going on, chances are VERY good this is a guild meeting.
It is not courteous to attack a guild meeting.

Let me explain a bit about why I'm particularly infuriated by this right now.

You see, as some of you may know, I'm VERY ill right in real life. I'm not RPing much because typing without typos is very very very difficult with the amount of pain I'm in and the amount of pain killers I'm on. I'm typing this all very slowly because I want to make absolutely certain that no one misunderstands a word of this.

However, some of my wonderful guild members are have been willing to put up with this to RP a little bit. Today we had a nice, impromptu IC guild meeting and I was really excited because I was actually going to get to RP with a group of people instead of just one-on-one. I haven't done that for about six weeks.

So, when said guild meeting was attacked I was more than a little irked. Especially since this has happened to the last SEVERAL guild meetings we've had -- even before I was sick and grumpy like this. I don't know if any other guilds are having this problem -- doesn't really matter. Point is, it shouldn't be a problem for ANY guilds. Common sense: if you see a guild meeting, don't attack it unless you have the say-so of the guild leader. We've had guild meetings we wanted to be attacked and we've arranged it. That's fine. But if it hasn't been arranged, it should not happen.

There's also a SOLID chance you could be interrupting an important guild meeting about important guild issues -- you have no way of knowing since you're on the opposite faction and can't read what's being said. Guilds have guild meetings for guild issues and sometimes they're important. Interrupting is -- again -- not courteous. And a full second of thought before attacking could tell you that maybe you shouldn't.

So in the future, don't attack guild meetings. Anyone's guild meetings. Thanks.

(I do recognize accidents happen, I'm not saying you're evil if you accidentally interrupt a guild meeting. But at a certain point you should be able to figure it out.)

1.) Don't flag if you don't want to be attacked.

2.) The only ones ruining any guild meeting 40 minutes after anyone has even been attacked are the people making unnecessary topics about it rather than RPing at their meeting.

Have a nice day and get better soon.

Not to be 'that guy' about this, but if it's something you absolutely do not want interrupted on an OOC level, you need to make everyone flag down. This is an RP server, but remember that RPers are the minority of players. Non-RPers are the majority. Do not ever assume some random person is going to be an RPer who even is just being a jerk, as it might be a non-RPer who just feels like messing with RPers for that day. Also, it might just be a jerk RPer who really doesn't care about protocol, isn't part of the community, or doesn't ever read the forums. Flagging down solves this. You cannot control other people's actions.

06/03/2012 01:41 PMPosted by Tazzle

1.) Don't flag if you don't want to be attacked.

We weren't all flagged. In fact ONE PERSON was flagged. She's always flagged, it's a well known fact. She shouldn't have to drop flag for guild meetings -- which she ended up doing.

2.) The only ones ruining any guild meeting 40 minutes after anyone has even been attacked are the people making unnecessary topics about it rather than RPing at their meeting.

Well, we had to move our meeting to a place where were NPCs like Tirion Fordring would defend us so we could have our meeting. Funny how that's when we stopped getting attacked.

Is it really so difficult to not attack? That's really that hard?

Have a nice day and get better soon.

Thanks.

1) Red is dead. Don't care what the occasion is... if you don't want to get attacked, don't flag. This isn't a PvP server, so there is no excuse for not doing this.

2) You can have a guild meeting in... I don't know, guild chat? Then you don't even need to be in the same place. If there are actual guild issues that need to be worked out instead of just RPing, there isn't a need to gather people up at all. If you're there to RP, then what makes it any different from any other occasion where a bunch of people are gathered up?

I think what Cray is asking for is a little common courtesy. Like when you ask people to flag up before attacking instead of blue flagging. That's all. It's hard to distinguish a meeting from a typical RP event (I get that), but when you have to go out of your way then it's probably an indication maybe.

Elgunaz.
Guild chat doesn't work that way for all guilds. So the solution makes a lot of assumptions that can't be applied. I understand that it is difficult to identify something as being a guild meeting of the opposing faction versus any other RP activity, but to some extent when you are going out of your way to get a single person it seems a little over the top.

I'm not advocating one way or the other, but I think the request for common courtesy isn't an over ambitious request or something that someone should possibly have to ask for. It's like asking people not to spit. Many people won't listen but it doesn't hurt to ask that they don't.

Guild chat doesn't work that way for all guilds.

I am not implying anything about how guild chat works except that

1) every full member or above can read guild chat; and

2) every full member or above can type in guild chat.

If one of the two assumptions above is invalid for your guild then that's far, far out of the norm.

Try this for size in your overgrown mouth. Just because you can doesnt mean you should. Yes RPers are a minority, but you should have enough maturity to show respect to those around you. Playing the childish "im gonna do it cause i want to" just proves you to be a weak minded person who is probably a waste of resources in the real world. Grow up, be considerate of others and quit acting like a bratty 2 year old.

Thus endeth the sermon.

Try this for size in your overgrown mouth. Just because you can doesnt mean you should. Yes RPers are a minority, but you should have enough maturity to show respect to those around you. Playing the childish "im gonna do it cause i want to" just proves you to be a weak minded person who is probably a waste of resources in the real world. Grow up, be considerate of others and quit acting like a bratty 2 year old.

Thus endeth the sermon.

I just had an aneurysm from the irony of your statement.

Anyway, I'm done with discussion of the topic in and of itself. It'd just lead to further arguing and debating, and the last thing Cray should be doing right now is something that will ineveitably lead to more stress. (I'd also advise him/her to not read this topic any further, as others likely /won't/ stop))

I am not implying anything about how guild chat works except that
1) every full member or above can read guild chat; and
2) every full member or above can type in guild chat.
If one of the two assumptions above is invalid for your guild then that's far, far out of the norm.

Those assumptions are fine. It's that guild chat isn't IC or that everyone at the meetings are in guild at the time of meeting such as applicants and what not. Those would be the assumptions I was referencing. That's all.

As Gen said though, have a good day.

If you don't want to be attacked, don't flag up.

Sorry, Cray, I know how irking that is especially when you're already ill, but it is the way the game works. It's easier to change one's self than to ask the whole community to change.

I hope you feel better soon.

Try this for size in your overgrown mouth. Just because you can doesnt mean you should. Yes RPers are a minority, but you should have enough maturity to show respect to those around you. Playing the childish "im gonna do it cause i want to" just proves you to be a weak minded person who is probably a waste of resources in the real world. Grow up, be considerate of others and quit acting like a bratty 2 year old.

Thus endeth the sermon.

I just had an aneurysm from the irony of your statement.

Anyway, I'm done with discussion of the topic in and of itself. It'd just lead to further arguing and debating, and the last thing Cray should be doing right now is something that will ineveitably lead to more stress. (I'd also advise him/her to not read this topic any further, as others likely /won't/ stop))

To further elaborate on the point of the irony:

"Just because you can doesn't mean you should" - just because you can have a public meeting in a place susceptible to getting ganked, while flagged, doesn't mean you should.

"Yes RPers are a minority, but you should have enough maturity to show respect to those around you." Has nothing to do with maturity. If anything, have enough 'maturity' (common sense) to not flag, or have a physical meeting instead of just doing it in guild chat.

"Playing the childish "im gonna do it cause i want to" just proves you to be a weak minded person who is probably a waste of resources in the real world." You're an RPer... telling other people not to be childish. I hope the irony is self-explanatory. The part about being a waste of resources in the real world should be self-explanatory too.

All in all, all of this anger at how the community supposedly misbehaved is basically misguided, as the problem can easily be solved with a few very simple things that you could've done. If you won't put in the smallest modicum of effort to make your experience the best possible, why would anyone else put in any effort to make your experience any better?

...whoa. Why was I being attacked for being completely objective? I wasn't defending whoever it was that was attacking you guys. Not everyone is an RPer on this server. Some people /just don't care/ if you are RPing. Was it jerky? Yes. But you can't control everyone. Some people just /don't care/ about courtesy or what are generally seen as the manner protocols on RP servers. I personally would never do something like that, but I have been on this server enough to know that there are people who are just jerks who intentionally might want to ruin fun.

I feel for your frustrations, but if you run into someone who just /won't/ abide by your requests, it's best to cut your losses, and your stress, and be able to just /let it go./ If someone is going to be perma-flagged, they need to accept they will occasionally deal with someone who is just going to be a total jerk. If they aren't willing to deal with that consequence, they need to flag down for important things. That's all I was trying to say.

There is /no point/ in getting incredibly stressed out and angry over something like this. Is it it considerate and annoying that someone needs to flag down occasionally? Yes, but it's an easy solution. Do not make a mountain out of a mole hill. Also, please don't talk about being childish when you start insulting me and calling me names, especially when I was simply being completely objective.

I'm one of those RPing minorities on this server, by the way, and when I run into people who are just have no interest in playing nice with me, I simply take myself out of the situation instead of freaking out and making forum posts, because anyone who already is going to play nice and follow protocol already is, and those who don't /certainly don't care/ about the fact they are being inconsiderate.

I'd be curious to hear who attacked the Pia meeting; there are people on this realm who are known for being griefers even when they're also active RPers, and there are people who are known for being generally considerate. Many of the more considerate ones actually maintain contact via Real ID for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is to make sure that if they attempt to do something that winds up being really disruptive, a quick message can encourage them to back off.

I do this with a few folks from the Horde, since I'm on an Alliance character about 99.8% of the time. They're good people, and I'm proud to have them on my Real ID. It's also facilitated some great cross-realm RP that happens in a bit more of a realistic cadence. As much as I love the folks from AAMS, sometimes waiting on translations can really break the flow of discussion, and there's little reason in this stage of Azeroth's development for a blood elf or Forsaken to not know Common. ;)

This said, PvP tends to polarize things. Trust me, I know: I was one of the hugest proponents of RP-PvP on our realm in recent history, and I've functionally given up on leading anything like that (though I'm always happy to participate). Some folks just don't want to PvP, but if it's happening in the context of RP, they really want to RP, so they sometimes feel forced to do something they don't like so they don't miss out on something they do like. I always tried to be accommodating, however: my old weekly attacks used to happen on Fridays til some kind folks from the Horde let me know that most of those inclined to respond to an RP-PvP attack were raiding on that night, so I moved it to Sundays. I kept that up for a bit til we hit a snag of predictability + a few folks (who I'm to understand were properly scolded) who would sit in on our planning meetings then pass info on to the other side. The rest of it was just the Horde being better prepared than we were, and stomping us frequently as a result. ;)

Then after Sundays became predictable, we started moving it around a bit, and a couple of RP meetings that recurred on Tuesdays turned into assaults on Horde cities, and we met some resistance since that was the one night a week where the less-active Horde RPers had a planned RP event.

So not wanting to be in the middle of constant drama, I just sort of backed off from it entirely. It was also partially motivated by drama developments Alliance side that were, through no intentional malice on the part of others, making it less fun for me to RP the personality I'd designed for Ragefang.

Then, of course, Diablo 3 happened, and I took a small break from WoW anyway, aside from weekly OS3D25 runs for the twilight drake (which will continue, btw). ;)

It shouldn't, however, matter if there's one or two folks from a given group who have chosen to stay perma-flagged as a matter of their personal RP. In this case, I'm coming down on Cray's side of things. Flagged or not, if you see a large gathering of a particular guild in an area not particularly designed for PvP (and the reality of the Argent Dawn reacting to any violence at Hearthglen, from Horde or Alliance, should be a good indicator that PvP, while possible there, isn't particularly intended there), and you don't have a pre-existing arrangement with a given guild leader in such a location for handling attacks, assume that the guild, if they're known to be full-time RPers, are actually RPing, and it might not be the best time to attack them. Heck, if you want to attack them, have your team hold on for a sec, hop over to a same-faction alt, and send a whisper to someone you saw there, asking if it would be awful for some RP-PvP to occur.

I love me some PvP, I really do, but I also love me some RP. PvP for PvP's sake is fine in the bounds of a battleground or Arena, or even in a place like the Gurubashi Arena or other free-for-all flagging area (I had my head handily returned to me in a fight with Narnicka there, for example).

But PvP for PvP's sake isn't always the best thing on an RP realm, and RPers should never feel like invoking the "RPers are a minority" defense on an RP realm. We may practically be the minority on Cenarion Circle, Horde & Alliance both, but that isn't the intent. I don't expect people to be very respectful of RP if it's happening on a Normal or PvP realm. On an RP realm, however, I generally tend to expect that even if someone doesn't RP, they'll at least take that into consideration when planning something that impacts other players, particularly when they're gathered together as a guild well-known for being an RP guild.

In Pia's particular case, one reason they moved their guild headquarters to Hearthglen was to get out of the way of people who were inclined to grief their events, whether intentionally or incidentally. *more*

*cont'd*

A PvP attack on Hearthglen will typically be well-received by Gentyl and her people, as they're known for enjoying some RP-PvP, and Gentyl and others work near-tirelessly to keep it stirred up on Cenarion Circle.

But there just isn't much defense for "If it's red, it's dead" on Cenarion Circle. Some degree of respect should be assumed by RPers with each other. I've wanted to attack a Black Hand Society meeting, but I made damned sure before doing so that I talked with Aziel and Thelinna to find out how disruptive it would be, or what conditions they'd like met before it occurred. In short, it was PvP that had an RP element with some consideration for the RPers, as their event wasn't generally designed for PvP to begin with.

I'm honestly surprised to hear people defending behavior like this. Yes, many of us want more "war" in Warcraft, but given the diversity of interest in PvP amongst the RP community (and the realm at large, even the non-RPers), and given the fact that some come to an RP community specifically so they don't have to deal with random PvP happening, there isn't as much plausibility to the "if it's red it's dead" defense.

If Cray's being accurate, this has happened multiple times. I don't know if it's the same group of people doing it every time. If it is, and if they're reading this, show a little decorum, or at least I'm asking you to. Sometimes someone wants to just RP, and if they're the only one flagged, it's pointless to attack the whole group, who may sacrifice their lack of interest in PvP just so they aren't leaving a fellow RPer, friend and, in Gentyl's case, guild leader, out in the cold solely because they personally don't like PvP.

Is it really so hard to be respectful, or is it now just de rigeur to conclude that if someone's flagged, that gives you not only a right but an open invitation to take a thermonuclear crap on what would otherwise obviously appear to be a non-PvP event?

Had I known one Presidium's death would pain you so, I would have killed more.

Apparently I feel like banging my head against a wall today, not entirely sure why, but, I will say this again. I'm not defending anyone. I don't agree with what they're doing. If I were a perma-flagger and someone kept interrupting my RP, I'd be annoyed, and not even bother asking them to stop and simply deflag. Why? Because that takes their power away, and quite frankly, if they're already doing it, they really don't care about my enjoyment of RP or trying to be considerate. That's all I'm saying. Much like real life, you simply cannot expect the best of people and need to suck it up and make the best of an annoying situation when bumps appear in the road. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

((All right. I was surprised that a role player would attack a meeting in Hearthglen, especially after our conversations regarding HG. I realize, Raoul, that you weren't on Raoul, but it still surprised me. And it surprises me even more that you have to get on a gnome warlock to defend it, but whatever.

Having said that, everyone has had their say. We've had all the "IT"S UR FAULT U FLAGGED!" arguments any single comment regarding this stuff generates.

I'm going to ask Pia to bow out so we can focus on more important things.))

((Oh, I wasn't hiding the fact I'm Dimitri really, it was more a matter of some things on his profile not updating, otherwise I would have posted as him. I figured it would be obvious to all those involved in either case. I bowed out of the actual arguing a while ago for Cray's sake, but if you insist on dragging me back in, I should make a few points. I haven't had my turn at a rant, after all.

Catching up on the topic ...

1.) Gentyl didn't actually drop flag for the meeting, nor was she forced to - the meeting lasted a good hour to an hour and a half, and there was only a brief period at the start where anyone did anything. The rest of that afterwards was just folks freaking out over the initial poke.

2.) The attacks didn't stop because you moved into the area inside. They stopped because I didn't want to /actually/ grief anyone. Trust me, had I intended to grief, the little safe-area in Hearthglen wouldn't have been a deterrent. I have zero interest in actually griefing RP, and if you think that was griefing then you've honestly never actually been griefed.

3.) Common courtesy varies by person to person. I, for one, think it's common courtesy not to make a mountain out of a mole hill and make a dramatastic topic for no reason other than to cause trouble. We don't bring our issues out here, we discuss it quietly and move on like reasonable folks. Obviously, we're in disagreement here, as are we in disagreement about the definition of griefing and quite a few other things.

4.) I don't actually agree with red = dead personally or that meetings should be forced to be in guild chat, I was just hunting Gentyl in boredom and when I caught up to her, was hardly not going to at least make an attempt on her life despite her having 20 friends.

5.) Broodin, just... don't even. I've personally been attacked in Hearthglen by you while I was in RP gear at a meeting of my own, so go somewhere else >>

6.) Basically what Lahkin said. If you didn't want to be attacked, why were you flagged? Don't permaflag if you don't want to deal with what it entails. Say it was a non-pvp event all you like, and that it was bad to attack all you want, but the fact of the matter is this is not a pvp enforced server, and to flag up means to invite PvP. That should really be all there is to say on the matter, but I feel like ranting myself a bit.

7.) Hi Ragefang! I don't know who's attacked Pia Meetings in the past, although my little poke tonight was the first time in recent history I can recall attacking Gentyl in a not TB/defense related scenario. (Ie, her defending Redridge)

8.) Speaking of drama, hey, looky here. This is why I stopped caring long ago and why I don't actually care now. Its not worth the effort when people react to /anything/ like they do. Jesus Christ, people. Learn to deal with things like reasonable human beings. Is that so much to ask? Make all the topics you like in the future; its never worked out for the better in the past, and its hardly working out for the best now.

In short? Just bloody deal with it, people. Its what the reasonable half of this community does, and quite frankly I'm done trying to play "no child left behind" here.