World of Warcraft®

02/01/2011 3:05 PMPosted by Yuujin

In the quote Kael'thas tells both of them that the High Elves have changed their names to the Blood Elves in honor of those who had fallen to the Scourge. She did not seem 'put off' by it at all. Afterwards, Kael'thas and his people continued to serve the Lordaeron Alliance for a while until they are left to die and eventually accept aid from the Naga.

The years of conflict between the night elves and the high elves number so many that they make the Alliance and Horde conflict look like children arguing over a toy. When the high elves lost their immortality, they eventually forgot their brethren as generations lived and died, creating legends of histories. The night elves remembered the damage the highborne brought to the world, and view their descendents as time bombs. When the high elves encountered the night elves, they realized the legends were true and began to resent the fact that the night elves had access to so much power that they refused to use — not to mention the whole matter of exile. Many plot to retake the magically imbued forests for themselves, regardless of the fact that both races belong to the Alliance.

Soruce: Warcraft RPG on High Elf/Night Elf relations. This would only be intensified with Blood Elves, considering their further degeneration into darker magic.

Do Night Elves like me now?

02/01/2011 3:29 PMPosted by Melyria

The years of conflict between the night elves and the high elves number so many that they make the Alliance and Horde conflict look like children arguing over a toy. When the high elves lost their immortality, they eventually forgot their brethren as generations lived and died, creating legends of histories. The night elves remembered the damage the highborne brought to the world, and view their descendents as time bombs. When the high elves encountered the night elves, they realized the legends were true and began to resent the fact that the night elves had access to so much power that they refused to use — not to mention the whole matter of exile. Many plot to retake the magically imbued forests for themselves, regardless of the fact that both races belong to the Alliance.

Soruce: Warcraft RPG on High Elf/Night Elf relations. This would only be intensified with Blood Elves, considering their further degeneration into darker magic.

Warcraft RPG book aside, because to be completely honest that doesn't make much sense at all, there was nothing in Warcraft 3 or in the World of Warcraft to support that claim. Blood Elves aren't further degenerating into darker magics either for that matter considering they are tapping directly from a Light imbued Sunwell.

That RPG handbook was written for table top adventures to offer people making small campaigns little 'notes' to help them write stories. I'm sure, before Blood Elves became a playable race, it would have been fine use that to write up a campaign, but there is nothing in the game to support that little bit of information and even if it was, its obviously not the whole of the Blood Elves or the whole of the Night Elves that feel that way.

And that says High Elves, not Blood Elves, so it could just as easily be talking about the High Elves that are members of the Alliance. Really, the book doesn't even bother to get its information straight and it has been proved to contradict actual game lore time and time again.

02/01/2011 3:57 PMPosted by Yuujin

Warcraft RPG book aside, because to be completely honest that doesn't make much sense at all, there was nothing in Warcraft 3 or in the World of Warcraft to support that claim. Blood Elves aren't further degenerating into darker magics either for that matter considering they are tapping directly from a Light imbued Sunwell.

That RPG handbook was written for table top adventures to offer people making small campaigns little 'notes' to help them write stories. I'm sure, before Blood Elves became a playable race, it would have been fine use that to write up a campaign, but there is nothing in the game to support that little bit of information and even if it was, its obviously not the whole of the Blood Elves or the whole of the Night Elves that feel that way.

If the RPG books were not official lore, your argument would make sense. However, they are.

02/01/2011 4:00 PMPosted by Vyressia

Do Night Elves like me now?

You must first dance on a mailbox, in Goldshire, in your underwear. Then escape without being violated... only then will you be accepted.

Maybe we could just cuddle?

02/01/2011 3:57 PMPosted by Yuujin

Warcraft RPG book aside, because to be completely honest that doesn't make much sense at all, there was nothing in Warcraft 3 or in the World of Warcraft to support that claim. Blood Elves aren't further degenerating into darker magics either for that matter considering they are tapping directly from a Light imbued Sunwell.

Further than the High Elves.

02/01/2011 3:57 PMPosted by Yuujin

That RPG handbook was written for table top adventures to offer people making small campaigns little 'notes' to help them write stories. I'm sure, before Blood Elves became a playable race, it would have been fine use that to write up a campaign, but there is nothing in the game to support that little bit of information and even if it was, its obviously not the whole of the Blood Elves or the whole of the Night Elves that feel that way.

RPG books are considered canon until specifically countered by a more recent source in WoW or the newer WoW books.

02/01/2011 3:57 PMPosted by Yuujin

And that says High Elves, not Blood Elves, so it could just as easily be talking about the High Elves that are members of the Alliance. Really, the book doesn't even bother to get its information straight and it has been proved to contradict actual game lore time and time again.

Yes. It said High Elves, as in the Alliance allied elves. Why would the High Elves be treated worse than Blood Elves, when Blood Elves have delved into Warlock magic and joined The Horde?

Face it, Night Elves just do not trust or like Blood Elves.

02/01/2011 4:09 PMPosted by Melyria

Further than the High Elves.

Tell that to those poor High Elves who turned wretched in Eastern Kingdom.

02/01/2011 4:09 PMPosted by Melyria

RPG books are considered canon until specifically countered by a more recent source in WoW or the newer WoW books.

I've seen this argued both ways. I know that when the RPG book supports peoples opinions they tend to lean toward it being cannon, but when it does not, they tend to dismiss it. It is contradicted by current lore to boot, both High Elves and Blood Elves have their Sunwell back. Does the RPG book you're reading from say that or is it outdated?

Blizzard has officially offered their stance on the novels being but I do not remember ever seeing anything official from them stating that the RPG books are 100% cannon.

Again, I am finding it really hard to believe that the opinions you expressed in your guide relating to how Night Elves feel about Blood Elves are accurate. I do however think that based on the lengths you went through to support your opinions of that stance, -you- would prefer they felt that way.

However, there is plenty of evidence to support the contrary. At the very least, it is accurate to say that the Night Elves would treat Blood Elves the same way they treat every other Horde race, as an enemy of the Alliance. This is why I doubt your guide will ever get sticked, there is too much opinion and not enough evidence.

02/01/2011 4:18 PMPosted by Yuujin

I've seen this argued both ways. I know that when the RPG book supports peoples opinions they tend to lean toward it being cannon, but when it does not, they tend to dismiss it. It is contradicted by current lore to boot, both High Elves and Blood Elves have their Sunwell back. Does the RPG book you're reading from say that or is it outdated?

Canon. And yes, that part of the book is now outdated. However, since the entire book was not about the Blood Elves/High Elves and the Sunwell...the book itself is not outdated.

Blizzard has officially offered their stance on the novels being but I do not remember ever seeing anything official from them stating that the RPG books are 100% cannon.

Again, I am finding it really hard to believe that the opinions you expressed in your guide relating to how Night Elves feel about Blood Elves are accurate. I do however think that based on the lengths you went through to support your opinions of that stance, -you- would prefer they felt that way.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Warcraft_RPG#Official_source_of_lore

However, there is plenty of evidence to support the contrary. At the very least, it is accurate to say that the Night Elves would treat Blood Elves the same way they treat every other Horde race, as an enemy of the Alliance. This is why I doubt your guide will ever get sticked, there is too much opinion and not enough evidence.

You have your evidence now. Or does the Defense have any other questions?

02/01/2011 4:18 PMPosted by Yuujin

Tell that to those poor High Elves who turned wretched in Eastern Kingdom.

Since they were of the 'blue' variety and not the 'green' (see the orbs growin from their backs), this means that the devolution to wretched was caused by arcane energy. It's been specifically stated that this devolution was caused by a powerful artifact that was unearthed and taken to the lodge.

In other words, those High Elves were not entirely at fault for their situation. Blood Elves are still worse.

However, there is plenty of evidence to support the contrary. At the very least, it is accurate to say that the Night Elves would treat Blood Elves the same way they treat every other Horde race, as an enemy of the Alliance. This is why I doubt your guide will ever get sticked, there is too much opinion and not enough evidence.

Night Elves aren't like the rest of The Alliance, nor are they like The Horde. They don't just hate races because "They're the enemy of the Alliance", they fight them for personalized reasons. Orcs, because they encroached on their land and killed Cenarius, Trolls because of the long and bloody history they hae with them (stretching back 10,000 years), etc.

The RPG books have made it clear that the Night Elves do not like the High Elves because they're considered 'ticking time bombs', given the magic they use. Blood Elves are even more open with such use of Arcane magic and even delve into Fel magic, something High Elves avoid.

In short it's the perfect storm. Blood Elves get all the hate that the High Elves do, plus the hate for joining the Horde, plus even more hate for being partaking in Fel magic.

02/01/2011 4:23 PMPosted by Valgus

You have your evidence now. Or does the Defense have any other questions?

You've summed it up quite well, yes, the books are outdated and the information in them is not always correct. It seems like you jumped into this conversation late. You're welcomed to read the post regarding Kael'thas and Tyrande's meeting and onward if you'd like to catch up.

The RPG books have made it clear that the Night Elves do not like the High Elves because they're considered 'ticking time bombs', given the magic they use. Blood Elves are even more open with such use of Arcane magic and even delve into Fel magic, something High Elves avoid.

In short it's the perfect storm. Blood Elves get all the hate that the High Elves do, plus the hate for joining the Horde, plus even more hate for being partaking in Fel magic

Yet I've already provided an example that clearly showed two Night Elf leaders harboring no ill will toward the High Elves and Blood Elves and providing aid them them. That just implies that the Night Elves do not respect their leaders or Night Elf leaders are far more enlightened than their subjects.

Night Elves do not particularly hold Fel magics over Arcane magics, they dislike any form of magic and their original 'fear' of magic was centered around Arcane.

I'm maintaining that the opinions you've expressed in regards to Night Elf views of the Blood Elves are not accurate and most if not all of the racial 'relations' can be removed. A guide should only contain accurate, concrete information. Outdated information, personal opinions, and speculations are not necessary.

02/01/2011 5:57 PMPosted by Yuujin

Yet I've already provided an example that clearly showed two Night Elf leaders harboring no ill will toward the High Elves and Blood Elves and providing aid them them. That just implies that the Night Elves do not respect their leaders or Night Elf leaders are far more enlightened than their subjects.

First, you're basing this off a RTS cut scene. Malfurion and Tyrande were in a strange land and were in dire situations.

02/01/2011 5:57 PMPosted by Yuujin

Night Elves do not particularly hold Fel magics over Arcane magics

... /facepalm

02/01/2011 5:57 PMPosted by Yuujin

I'm maintaining that the opinions you've expressed in regards to Night Elf views of the Blood Elves are not accurate and most if not all of the racial 'relations' can be removed. A guide should only contain accurate, concrete information. Outdated information, personal opinions, and speculations are not necessary.

And I'm maintaining that you're basing an entire race's viewpoint on a brief period of time between two racial leaders.

The RPG books are not outdated. WoW references them all the time. Where do you think we got Ettins from? Logical conclusions are acceptable when dealing with a guide, especially since I openly admit to some of this being logical speculation.

You maintain that Night Elves would not harbor any ill will toward the Blood Elves outside of the fact that they allied with the Horde. And yet they dislike the High Elves. Your logic is flawed.

02/01/2011 6:06 PMPosted by Melyria

First, you're basing this off a RTS cut scene. Malfurion and Tyrande were in a strange land and were in dire situations.

No, they were hunting for Illidan and Tyrande stopped the quest to offer aid to Kael'thas, which displeased Maiev. She actually stopped them from that quest to offer aid despite the necessity to find Illidan. You should replay that campaign, it was very enjoyable.

... /facepalm

That's not a very constructive response. I've seen nothing in Night Elf lore to suggest they hate 'Fel' magics anymore than Arcane.

They do hate demons though. So do Blood Elves who according to your RP book viciously attack them on sight.

And I'm maintaining that you're basing an entire race's viewpoint on a brief period of time between two racial leaders.

The RPG books are not outdated. WoW references them all the time. Where do you think we got Ettins from? Logical conclusions are acceptable when dealing with a guide, especially since I openly admit to some of this being logical speculation.

You maintain that Night Elves would not harbor any ill will toward the Blood Elves outside of the fact that they allied with the Horde. And yet they dislike the High Elves. Your logic is flawed.

I know, crazy me for basing an opinion on an actual interaction between a race as opposed to a quote from a book regarding High Elves and Night Elves and some paranoid outdated delusion that the High Elves are going to go on a conquest to conquer Kalimdor to steal its powers when they have their Sunwell back.

02/01/2011 6:19 PMPosted by Yuujin

I know, crazy me for basing an opinion on an actual interaction between a race as opposed to a quote from a book regarding High Elves and Night Elves and some paranoid outdated delusion that the High Elves are going to go on a conquest to conquer Kalimdor to steal its powers when they have their Sunwell back.

Outdated how in terms of Kaldorei reactions? It clearly said that they think that the Highborne are a threat because of the magic that they use, not because they want to steal their forests.

My comment on Blood Elf/Night Elf view was based on a logical conclusion. That conclusion was brought out by the tabletop game book, specifically detailing Night Elf thoughts on High Elves (which in turn applies to Blood Elves).

Blizzard's standard is that if it has not been contradicted in WoW then the previous warcraft works are canon, including the tabletop RPGs. As such there has been no counter argument that shows Night Elves openly embracing High Elves and, therefore, have no reason to have differing opinions of Blood Elves.

Now, this argument has gone on long enough and has turned into a p!#@ing match. I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this. You refuse to take into account the RPG material, I include it. We will not reach an agreement.

02/01/2011 6:29 PMPosted by Melyria

Outdated how in terms of Kaldorei reactions? It clearly said that they think that the Highborne are a threat because of the magic that they use, not because they want to steal their forests.

My comment on Blood Elf/Night Elf view was based on a logical conclusion. That conclusion was brought out by the tabletop game book, specifically detailing Night Elf thoughts on High Elves (which in turn applies to Blood Elves).

Blizzard's standard is that if it has not been contradicted in WoW then the previous warcraft works are canon, including the tabletop RPGs. As such there has been no counter argument that shows Night Elves openly embracing High Elves and, therefore, have no reason to have differing opinions of Blood Elves.

Now, this argument has gone on long enough and has turned into a p!#@ing match. I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this. You refuse to take into account the RPG material, I include it. We will not reach an agreement.

I haven't refused to take into account the RPG books at all. I've stated that the books can be outdated and the canon interaction between two leaders contradicts this notion that hostility should be expected according to your 'relations' section. You seem to think that there is a solid reaction all Night Elves should have toward a specific race. I disagree and have provided an example where that was the furthest thing from the case.

That is why I've always disagreed with racial relations/views being included in guides. The Human race was responsible from bringing the Legion back into Azeroth between the events of the Sundering and the events of Warcraft III, and Night Elf disdain for Arcane would be projected on them as well as Gnomes, Dwarves, and Draenei as they are all practitioners of Arcane and in some cases Fel yet they haven't been unanimously condemned for their practices.

I do not think the Night Elves are as firmly planted in their opinions and reactions as you seem to think they are. That's all.

Look, we're bickering just like the RPG book said we would.

Bump, spread the word.

Suddenly Night Elves. Thousands of them.

In light of the Kaldorei/Kal'dorei debate thread I feel this is relavent.

If I'm not mistaken, some night elves also follow the Sect of the Dragons, essentially worshiping the dragons and the Dragon Aspects. It would make sense considering the night elves do have a closer connection to them with the blessing of Nordrassil.

Very nice guide. I've been doing a lot of reworking on Faroth to bring his background more in line with a traditional night elf history with a slight twist (an adoptive mother who put him through hell teaching him to fight growing up so he'd be better suited than his father to take care of himself).

Really like the guide and I'll be referring others to it!

Regarding the fel magic/arcane magic. I'd wager the night elf society views fel magic as 1/2 step worse than arcane, but they're both pretty much close to being the same level of "that's not good" considering one is expected to easily lead to the other.

I'm kind of disappointed in how NEs were handled in WoW. Their race should be the Forsaken equivalent on the Alliance in Classic; accepted as allies, but still a bit aloof and perhaps even slightly viewed with suspicion & curiosity by the others. Where Forsaken view their allies somewhat as tools for their needs, NEs seem to view their allies as somewhere between troublesome children that need guidance and curious creatures of interest. ;)

Cataclysm would have been great for further internal strife if the worgen were viewed as monsters, and the disdain for Gilneas' withdraw from the Alliance, and then the Night Elves bring these monsters into the fold?

Alas, Blizzard seems to have glossed us over a bit, imo.

Yeah, I'm somewhat disappointed with the turn Night Elves took this expansion too.