World of Warcraft®

SoE Raid Culture

Hello my fellow server mates:

I, firstly, want to introduce myself. I am Rende; protection warrior, raid leader, Kingslayer and generally good guy on the server. Quite recently, my newly former guild (Timeless Order) has made a decisive move to Earthen Ring to pull from an increased raider population. I do not object to their decision however for several reasons (which include mostly the fact that I cannot meet the raid schedule any longer due to commuting issues) I have decided to stay.

Some of you know me from the 25 man ‘continuous’ ICC pug that was run for about 12 weeks. We accomplished 11/12 well before 4.0.1 and had matched progression of some guilds that had previously left the server because progression ‘was not possible’ on this server.

I believe SoE does have some fundamental issues that limit the availability of raiders however I do not believe the problem is that ‘players on SoE suck’. There are a handful of very formidable guilds on SoE (note that I’m speaking strictly for Alliance for this article. I love you Apples ;-). Bads, Council of Dragons, Turmoil, Ascendency, Night, Zen and many others have proven themselves in a 10 or 25 man capacity to raid effectively. So what’s the problem? How can we improve our raid culture so that raiders will not dread picking up a pug for fear that they will wipe their raid?

There are a few tenants that most raid leaders follow. These help to enforce structure and keep everyone excited and having fun. A raid leader’s job is part strategist and part politician. They need to know the strategies going into a zone (as everyone really should) and they have to keep a solid pace. There have often been times where I have sent the raid clearing trash while I’ve stood in Dalaran recruiting the last few members of a pug. Nobody likes to just stand there and stare at their character. I have routinely replaced late regulars with new pugs just to get thing moving (tardiness is a pet peeve of mine, almost as much as signing up for an event and not showing. I’m sure others are more relaxed on this then I). There are plenty of articles out there that explain the relationship between raid leaders and raiders so I won’t dwell on this. In short, raid leaders are pretty busy; respect the work they’ve done to try and improve your game experience.

Raiders themselves have an equally daunting task. You must perform to the absolute best of your ability. A raider’s performance and attitude WILL effect the outcome of a raid. Very often I’ve heard the term ‘carried’. Well there are two types of being carried through a raid. The first and acceptable meaning is that a member is under-geared. I am happy to get people gear to improve their performance as long as they are happy to try their best to learn the fights and not spend their evening with their face on the floor. The second and not acceptable is those that join the raid without a shred of knowledge of the raid zone and/or their character. You MUST know your characters optimal dps, threat and/or healing strats. More then anything else this is the holy grail. Moving your character while doing your job is equally important in raids. Make sure your keyboard layout supports this. Make sure you are doing your best. You don’t need to be the highest on damage or healing meters, just don’t be below the tanks(dps) or shadow priests(healing) ;-)

Now all of this is well and good however this still doesn’t answer our question. How do we improve the culture of raiding? How do less skilled players acquire these skills?

Training

Many skilled players love to talk about the intricate mechanics of their class (raiders are famous for their ramblings;-P). If you see someone playing your class better then you do, talk to them. Most good players (I won’t speak for all) don’t think they’re the best players which is how they are able to improve. Truly exceptional raiders often ask questions and do research even if they are top on the meters 90% of the time. It’s how we grow.

Will trade chat laugh at you? Probably. Ask anyways. There usually a few good people that will send tells to you and answer your questions or direct you to where you can find it. I have spoke to many players who needed direction and pushed them towards the appropriate people. I personally am reasonably versed in Warriors and Priests (healing). If you can admit that you are not up to speed then you can learn to get up to speed. Keyboard layouts, framerate improvement, rotations and add-ons all play an important part of any class output.

Willingness to train

Ah the elitist. It’s a fine line between knowing you are a competent player and thinking you are better then everyone else. Us poor raid leaders get this tag often because we weigh the needs of many versus the few. This is more directed at the non-elitist. Show the newbie that path to greatness. If you are a good player and see someone struggling, don’t /yell NOOB. Send them a tell and see if there’s an issue. If there is a fundamental problem that can’t be fixed on the fly (like they have no idea how to play their class) then you may wish to inform your raid leader to he can deal with it. If the person is willing to learn then you can give him a breakdown of what he should be doing. If they are not or they instruct you not to tell them “How to play their class” move on.

You cannot teach someone who does not want to learn. Just get them out of the raid so everyone else can continue having fun. Chances are the raid leader has already received half a dozen tells about how much that ‘random noob’ sucks. He/she’ll be happy to end the chatter and get back to raiding.

Raid Guilds

The raid culture on SoE has been relatively insular. Guilds typically raid only with their guild (the rule; there are exceptions). I think we need to mix it up a bit. I’m looking into creating raid teams with a couple empty spots for pugs (even for progression). There are a few really good reasons for this.

1. It is a sure fire way to test players before they come to your guild.
2. There are very good players that have a guild for other reasons outside of raiding. This opens up a way to tap those players for raids without destroying the social side of their gaming experience
3. It educates the general raiding community and allows raid leaders from other guilds to expand their own knowledge (eg. Raid leader of guild X is struggling with a boss to runs with guild Z to have downed the encounter to see their strat) The new lockout rules work quite well for this.

This is something that guilds would really have to assess (guilds that run on loot systems may have difficulty). But the idea is to cross knowledge between guilds (the big and small ones) to improve our overall raid population.

Hardcore Puggers

I know one of the draws that people have with pugs are the lack of accountability. I’ve seen it too many times. You should note however that our raid population compares to that of a small town (maybe 2,000 people). Word gets around. I personally take notes on every person I raid with for future reference (it’s a big list). You may not see the effects of being rude, arrogance or ignorant right away however you will reap what you sow. Successful raid leaders are careful to make sure they encourage good players and discourage bad ones that won’t take steps to improve. For me that includes notes on every raider (a simple addition to friends list with a note works for me. I actually have one person marked Danger! danger! ;-). Be respectful of the players around you and you will gain respect yourself.

Summary

Coming into Cataclysm I think we need to take this time to get to know one another. Being a tank, I will often be running pug dungeons on server (yet another way to find good players for my team ;-). Many of the rules are changing in Cataclysm and many of us are relearning our classes or levelling new ones. If we can cross our finding across guilds, we will make everyone’s experience in the coming expansion much more enjoyable.

Shameless Plug

I’m looking for a few good men and women for a raid team in Cataclysm. I’m making 3 10 mans that are collapsible to 1 25man (not going to explain, just trust me it’s a good thing). Those that are interested can contact me.

If you’ve listened this long, you must be at work. Get back to work! ;-D

And thanks for listening.

There's a lot of good information in that. Unfortunately, we can't have people giving up on raiding on SoE.

The way I look at it, is we're like a Division 3 Football school. We're not going to recruit anyone here for a scholarship but that doesn't mean we can't play a good game of football!

Anyways, if you're putting together PUGs for raids, let me know if there's any advise I can give, or anything I can help out with. I ran 2 raids during BC for the now well defunct Small Guild Karazhan Alliance, so I've got some experience with the organizational side of raiding too.

Unfortunately, we can't have people giving up on raiding on SoE.

Too true Valhelm. There are many on this server who enjoy (or would enjoy given the right atmosphere) raiding.

One of the largest shortages (and something I somewhat omitted) is raid leaders. Anyone ever seen 10 people looking for a group for ICC10 at the same time in trade?

Putting that first foot forward is integral to making more raids happen.

This is an EXCELLENT thread! Id be happy to offer help in anyway I can. Been playing and raiding since Vanilla wow, mostly as ranged dps or heals but I do know a little about tanking as well ( what kind of healer would i be if I didnt? :P ) It took me a LOOOONG time to find a raiding guild that not only gets things done but has decent people in it as well. People that undersand RL ( I am a mom of two under 14 months old :P ) happens and is always the priority. I have also run with Rende before and he is VERY good, and hosnestly the run was quite fun.
On SoE I have multiple 80's. A dk, priest ( disc/shadow ), and a hunter.
I also have a 78 rogue and a 72 pally so anyone please feel free to hit me up.

Raid wise my priest is pretty spoken for in 10 mans but the 25 Id be happy to roll with, and my dk and hunter are both up for grabs.

im kinda dissapointed that 25 mans and 10 mans will share the same lockout.

I'm torn. Advantage is only 1 raid per week needs to be organized. Disadvantage is you can't run 10 and 25. I believe that the new format will allow people to deal with player shortages more easily however that is a topic for another thread.

Id be happy to offer help in anyway I can.

In general, share your knowledge with others. More specifically, I will be running raids come January and avidly dungeon running before then.

Look me up :-)

How do we improve the culture of raiding? How do less skilled players acquire these skills?

Random ideas:
- Raiding 101 using non-bleeding-edge raids. My first raid experience was at Gruul, Magtheridon and Sunwell when Tripsy was 78.
- Consider starting your own RaidPUG channel? I really don't know if SoE has the population of people who are interested in this, or if everyone but me thinks Trade is swell.
- Emphasize the fun of raiding over the loot. It's nice to have fancy stuff, but for me it's way more fun to see areas and fights I've never seen before and to see how well I can do under pressure, with a bunch of people who are also giving it all they can. (Also: run-on sentences. I love those.)

I suppose what you do is different depending on your goal. If you want to attract people who raid and know the content and just build community, that's one thing. If you want to interest people who are new to raiding, that's another.

Speaking from the viewpoint of a noob, I found it really hard to get into raiding. Everything I read said "gear up as best you can and then join PUGs". But I'd see someone looking for DPS for [random raid I knew nothing about] and be all "well, I'd probably fail to do something important I didn't know about" and skip that. Or someone would say "you should come to 25-man ICC" and I'd be all "In my pitiful gear I'd do horribly and never get asked back".

I find Trade to be a cesspit, but I hardly ever see a peep on Looking For Group. Even when I had researched the weekly and wanted to try out something simple, say, Razorscale, I was unable to stay in Trade for more than 15 minutes at a time. Sometimes I'd /join Trade, see a sentence or two of inarticulate LOLing, and /leave before I could get -too- depressed that I play a game with those people.

Eventually I stumbled into a couple of PUGs among the RP groups and those have allowed me to sink my teeth into some of the fun stuff to be found in raiding.

Emphasize the fun of raiding over the loot. It's nice to have fancy stuff, but for me it's way more fun to see areas and fights I've never seen before and to see how well I can do under pressure, with a bunch of people who are also giving it all they can. (Also: run-on sentences. I love those.)

You nailed it right on the head there Tripsy. Loot mongering is a common problem in raids (it has torn apart hardcore raiding guilds and is very common in pugs). I ran the 25 man pug for the simple reason that I wanted to see if we could take down Lich King. In 12 raids I rolled twice on gear (lost both) but it never phased me. The thrill of the challenge should be the driving force.

You sound like a very typical new raider. You want to get in but don't get the opportunity. SoE is actually easier then most servers on new raiders (which is scary).

My advice to a new player isn't necessarily gear (though it does help and in some cases is just flat out required to survive encounters) but skill. Know everything about your class in a raiding environment. Learn to move alot while fighting mobs. I find battlegrounds to be a stellar place to train people on situational awareness. It makes raid encounter strats look easy.

Lastly, trade chat is full of nonsense. But those people listening in chat aren't so much. I don't talk often in trade though I never turn it off. Asking a question in chat will often be answered in tells (sometimes you have to ask two or three times).

I thought the article was an excellent read, but there was one point that I felt iffy on reading (even though you did address it right after this quote).

Raid Guilds

The raid culture on SoE has been relatively insular. Guilds typically raid only with their guild (the rule; there are exceptions). I think we need to mix it up a bit. I’m looking into creating raid teams with a couple empty spots for pugs (even for progression). There are a few really good reasons for this.

From the standpoint of helping new players everywhere, or improving the playerbase (which are lofty, perhaps unmanageable goals), it does make sense to PUG more. You have solid groups, and you can carry people through stuff they might not otherwise see. They learn faster when they're the only one learning. You do make friends by bringing people through content they've never seen before. "Wow, you guys are so much better than the average PUG. I've never seen Sindy die before!"

On the other hand, it's not really fair to your raid groups if you're after serious, progression raiding. There's a reason people form guilds, and avoid PUGs, and it's not to be insular so much as successful. When you join a guild, you build bridges with your raid group; no-showing, dropping mid-raid, causing drama, doing poorly and not caring about it are all things you can't do in guild groups without burning those bridges.

To be completely honest, the only time I've ever seen a guild go out-of-guild to fill a raid was if they didn't have enough people to flesh it out properly. For a new guild, PUGgin can definitely help you recruit those extra people by giving them "trial" guild runs. Sometimes big guild alliances can work for doing neat 25s that would otherwise be unwieldy to form and run. But I think there's a reason we all groan when we head to trade to fill our raid groups. The wild PUG is often rude, incompetent, and leaves after the first wipe; the true raider gems are much harder to come by.

I ran 10s outside of a guild format from Ulduar on, and I noticed a huge difference in group quality and commitment as soon as we went guild-only. Our runs improved, we got serious about progression, and we got much, much further in our runs.

I also think part of good raid leading is being willing to cut people from your groups if they're not pulling their weight. It's not a pleasant part of the job. I dwell on it, for days and days before I tell someone we have to pull their invites from a group because I know it's going to hurt feelings. But ultimately, you owe it to the nine other people you raid with to make sure the group is healthy and successful.

For us, an alternative is to have farm/alt runs set aside for people who need more time to learn the encounters or to build their raid skills. It's the kind of run where we might selectively PUG to fill in some spots on easier content, or where we can teach new people some new fights.

But ultimately, I really think that raiding within a good raiding guild generally provides the best raiding experience. It's like talking to people about that new Star Trek movie at a sci-fi convention. You're most likely to have a good time when you're surrounded by people who are interested in the same things you are. ^^

On the other hand, it's not really fair to your raid groups if you're after serious, progression raiding.

This is a valid opinion. I know many people's experience has been to wipe and wipe... and wipe in a pug. Perhaps I should elaborate on my definition of a pug a little more.

Your typical pug is a person (or small group of guildies) spamming to fill the other 20 spots. The way I handled my first pug in ICC25 was similar to this. What I did after the raid was write down all of the names of those who met certain criteria (which was not always just their meter numbers). I then created an event for the following week, invited all of those people. During that raid I had to invite less random people.

As this continued I still regularly had to fill 3-5 spots with people I didn't know. It was at this point that Sindy would start getting killed. Why? One of the largest advantages of a random flow of members is sometimes you get some really really good ones. Some alts (and the occassional main) from some of the top progress guilds were joining the pug. They would impart their knowledge of many fights to me and my fellow puggers. Many times, a variety of viewpoints can help to look at a problem in a different way. Special thanks to Terrible. He was instrumental in our first Putricide kill.

I think groups like this help transfer the flow of information from one guild to the next, Further helping many guilds in the process.

I do agree with you Faeylin. Your success in a fresh pug is dramatically reduced. I think we just need to get some people to redefine how we assemble pugs in the future.

No worries, just chiming in with my own view is all. I don't think raiding guilds really want to exclude people (in truth, most guilds are constantly recruiting because raider turnover/burnout is inevitable), but each guild can only handle setting up raids for so many people, and you want to take the people you know first.

What you're describing has long been fun and successful, especially when it comes to 25s. PUGging -> building up your invite/friend's list -> Drawing on 35+ people each week to get that full group, with a couple extra from trade here or there. It totally works, and you do get some very good people who can't guild swap (especially unplayed alts from the other raid guilds out there).

Anyway, I wish you lots of good luck. I have this theory you're Alliance and that we're mortal enemies, so I can't offer you any direct help. But, if you make all you regular raiders die their heads pink or light blue (those be da troll colors mon!), we'll avoid eating them so they can make raids on time! ^^

Don't say da Horde don't be showin' you no mercy!

*super fast hugs and good wishes...so fast, you probably imagined it, you...Ally person you!*

12/04/2010 5:01 PMPosted by Faeylin

I have this theory you're Alliance and that we're mortal enemies, so I can't offer you any direct help. But, if you make all you regular raiders die their heads pink or light blue (those be da troll colors mon!), we'll avoid eating them so they can make raids on time! ^^

Ha! I am Alliance and an avid pvper as well. I'll make that hair die recommendation. I'm sure it will fly with the gnomes :-)

See you on the battlefield. I'll make sure to take pause and bow before bringing the full wrath of the alliance down on you. ;-) Honour in war! Honour in death!