World of Warcraft®

Im starting this thread because im interested in how people expect a raid to go. Do you expect a raid slot? Do you feel that sometimes people are going to haft to sit out? How does sitting out make you feel? How would you set up a raid if you had, lets say, too many dps and only enough tanks and healers to support one raid group? How you would handle the fact that the people you run with one night will most likely not be the same people your run with the next?

Looking forward to your answers

All warlocks go, Droods get kicked to the curb...


Shadow Priests if I can and NO Paladins.

DK Tanks and all heals are shammys...




((obvious joke post))

Be back later after I think about it.

Do you expect a raid slot?

I can't say I don't expect a Raid slot, because deep down human nature kicks in and we all feel in some way that we deserve to be on a team if we feel we've put in the effort. The catch is the person setting up our Raid is typically on every night. So even though players might feel we are entitled to a slot after weeks of effort, our raid leader has the final say. I believe this to be fair considering our Leader knows who has been on, who's sat out and who causes trouble. When it comes down to it in our own Guild situation, the Raid leader is the one who decides who goes and who does not. It's the players job to understand that even though we might be online 5 nights a week, we are still clueless to whom shows up on the other nights. Our Raid leader has been on every night for the past two years 99% of the time, so I personally feel that other Guild members should respect his role for what it is and understand that the choice he makes are his best intentions for the 9 to 24 other players he takes.

Do you feel that sometimes people are going to haft to sit out?

People are always going to sit out, it requires 10-25 people to raid and if 37 are online then possibly 2-7 players will sit out. Once you start weighing in the Healers, Tanks and players that have not reached level 85 this number diminishes drastically. Our Guild does not pug players, so this phenomena affects our groups more than other Guilds who might pug a few extra players. If one were to pug every night on a larger population realm then possibly you would receive a slot every night, but at the risk of a less organized group. The only other way I could see someone having a Raid slot every night is to run a Guild or Raid them self. It's a fact that if you don't pug, you can't assure a raid slot to every member each night. So then it's left to a choice for the player to show up when possible and be noticed, or take a risk and pug content elsewhere.

How does sitting out make you feel?

I personally don't mind sitting out, because Raiding is just one part of the game. There are plenty of others things to do in World of Warcraft, let alone around the house. Some nights I would prefer Raiding but once again, in Zen we don't pug so as I stated above a slot is not always open for me.

How would you set up a raid if you had, lets say, too many dps and only enough tanks and healers to support one raid group?

The answer is in the question, I don't like to pug - so I will choose a group I feel can complete the content and the rest will just have to sit out and be on standby. Just like any other Raid leader, my selection would be different than everyone else due to my own personal views. I'd most likely lean towards players that could "possibly" complete the content, that won't cause any issues. Such as a common ninja afk, attitudes and reasons not to listen or question the groups judgement in a poor manner. You may be elite and able to out dps and heal everyone, but personality has a larger weight for my group selection. I enjoy raiding and I don't appreciate players taking that joy away from me.

How you would handle the fact that the people you run with one night will most likely not be the same people your run with the next?

I think this would be less of an issue if I were to only do one 10 or one 25 man group a night. I'd prefer it that way, but to give people slots in a larger Guild it requires to run more than one group a night. This causes issues with locks and personalities, by mixing up players with different groups throughout the week you risk losing players halfway into a raid due to a lock with the other group. Personality can factor in and cause issues as well, I'd love to say every Guild is full of perfect people but it is not. So chances are you'll have to ask two players to suck it up and raid together one night because you got no one else to fill the slot. You'd be surprised how one person can ruin a night of raiding for one group, setting up groups takes allot of effort and requires understanding from each individual. So to answer your question I simply have to put up with it, that the perfect group makeup in my head is full of normal people with other duties in life to attend to.

So my advice to players looking for Raid slots in any Guild is; Don't stand in fire, do your job, have a 101 conversation with your Raid leader to see what they require of you and just because you don't like someone, doesn't mean you tell it to their face. To be a successful raider you need to treat whomever is in charge with courtesy and respect, just like you would an employer. This is just a video game, but you still have to acknowledge these pixels walking around as individuals and nothing less. If you're real good, you'll treat the other members of your guild the same way you do the Raid Leader and then I could assure you, that any Guild would have an open slot for a player such as yourself. Don't do this and you'll probably feel the wrath of a thousand suns and be poly morphed into a troll. Trust me, I've seen it happen.

Personal first in surpassing the 5,000 character mark on my initial post.

^ /clap

long bloody post

Nice work there, sums it up pretty well.


Garverdorf is just butthurt that us droods pwn him in PVP.

I love the idea for this thread as well as Leo's response. Raid leading is a tough, time consuming, thankless job. You put in hours a week researching boss fights, class/spec combinations, then have to put it into practice with your raid & hope that it works with your set up. Then even if your plan works you almost never get any appreciation but instead you get greif from those who had to sit. In order to be a successful raiding guild you must have more of each role than you need. If not & someone is absent noone would get to raid. That is a disservice to the guild as a whole.

07/30/2011 03:10 PMPosted by Biggestbear

Do you expect a raid slot?

Do I? Well yes, but I had to earn it like anyone. Do your job, show up when you're supposed to show up, be prepared, and the raid invites will come.

Do you feel that sometimes people are going to haft to sit out?

Almost assuredly. There's a couple different ways to handle things though. I believe you have to have more than 10 raiders for a 10 man raid team. If you don't then you run the risk of cancelling a raid b/c one person had real life intrude, and real life will intrude. Now whether you have a 12 or 13 member raid team, and rotate people through, or you have 10 people with 2 or 3 bench players who only fill in when someone else can't make it depends on the raid.

How does sitting out make you feel?

Doesn't bother me. Having to sit once in awhile isn't the end of the world, and it's comforting to know that the raid isn't boned if I can't make it one night. Missing out on guild first kills sucks though. >.<

How would you set up a raid if you had, lets say, too many dps and only enough tanks and healers to support one raid group?

Depends how many dps I had. If I had a lot, with a good melee/ranged split, I'd go and try and recruit more tanks/healers and get two raids going. If I only had a couple extra dps I'd just rotate them. Alternatively see if any of them are hybrids and interested in tanking/healing.

How you would handle the fact that the people you run with one night will most likely not be the same people your run with the next?

You adapt. People need to be able to handle different situations. Pigeon holing someone into a tank healing role or a something like that is going to cause you more issues, especially in a 10 man. Everyone needs a certain amount of versatility and once you have that it's up to the raid leaders to put people in positions where they can be effective.

07/30/2011 03:10 PMPosted by Biggestbear

Do you expect a raid slot?

Because, like Sellys I've earned one, so yes. When slotted as a regular raider in a regular schedule raid, of course. If it's made known from the start that some people might be swapped out, then it might be a different issue.

Do you feel that sometimes people are going to haft to sit out?

It happens, but I don't personally believe it's necessary. Current content no longer favors 2 tanks, 1 rogue, 5 healers, and 17 ranged dps. Most everything can be completed completely with a composition that works on every fight with minimal changes. Duel spec is key for times when fewer tanks or healers are necessary.

How does sitting out make you feel?

Been there, but it's varied. It was different back in former content, but now reasons vary. If it's simply to rotate players so more get a chance, fine, cool. If it's for one boss because someone's been trying to get a specific drop, that works, so as long as I don't need anything as well. If it's because a different class/role would be needed, I'd prefer to have the prerogative of using an able alt, having my character lose the spot, not me as a player. I show up on time, as scheduled and accepted, I don't want to sit around on the chance I might be needed. Once I'm declined a spot, fine, I'll either pug or lead an alt run for the lockout period. (see rant in next answer)

How would you set up a raid if you had, lets say, too many dps and only enough tanks and healers to support one raid group?

Schedule another raid at a separate time if there are alts that can fill the roles. Recruit tanks. Give priority to players willing to swap roles and/or use alts to make another group happen. Hell, I even have a second 85 tank, wouldn't take much to gear them up and simply tank for two groups.
Even better than getting another 10 man going: SWAP TO TWENTY FIVE MAN RAID.
I actually had a falling out with a guild after it was made clear that the GM and RL (two people) are the only ones that would ever run raid groups. That by no means would someone be allowed to set up another group or an alt run, and implied that if I was to do a pug run, I better be joining a pug, not starting one. This was absurd. Members sitting on the sidelines shouldn't be denied the chance to raid. Nor should they only be able to resort to PuGs started by random strangers. If you're not strict on recruiting specifically for certain raid spots, you have no business telling your members that if they aren't allowed in your raid group, they're not allowed to raid. Godforbid at 1 a.m. on a Tuesday morning (Monday night) you don't have a sizable pool of unsaved raidbots to draw from.

How you would handle the fact that the people you run with one night will most likely not be the same people your run with the next?

By being an elitist jack-[donkey synonym] and expect no less from them than from their predecessors. Lack of experience is one thing, but everyone has just as much access to strats/guides/videos. Might take a bit to learn specifics for the group, but it shouldn't be reinventing the wheel sort of labor every single week. If it's a random 9 people each week, it's harder. If I'm able to get a few regulars it helps more to set an example of consistency.

Generally speaking, of the topic: I tank Firelands. This is the first tier of content I ever had my cherry popped as a tank. From Kara through BoT, I entered first as DPS, and through OS gearing and just having proper raid awareness at all times, switching to tank was rather easy.
I've usually been one of the top fury warriors on this server, going all the way back to TBC when non-tank warriors barely existed in raids. Switching to tanking being first and foremost still feels weird at times. But I do it because I can. Me tanking means another group can happen. Me tanking means having a raid spot is more likely. Me tanking means less wipes, and more dead bosses and more purples for everyone! If I were told I was being denied my spot because some other player transferred over or left another guild and has full BiS gear was going to be given it, I'd point out plainly that I didn't fail at my role, that those behind the raid invites were looking to be carried, and that that sort of people I don't want to raid with anyways. Incidentally, I already don't roll with those sort of people.

I raid with the mindset that everyone should know what they're doing. That anyone, after several weeks of the same content, should be knowledgeable enough to lead their role. That after a few months, they should be able to tell anyone new to the group exactly how a fight goes.

This is an excellent discussion post Biggestbear.

I would like to throw in some suggestions and ideas on this topic, from the perspective of a raid organizer and leader.

First of all, I would like to say that choosing who gets to go and who must sit out is the most difficult decision that I make on a daily basis, and I do not just take these choices lightly.

Our guild is a very active guild, and we raid a lot. This is so that the most amounts of folks have an opportunity to see raid content. We generally have a raid event every night of the week; in this way no matter what night a person is able to play, they have an event to attend.

Nobody likes to be the last one picked for a kick-ball game. Or worse yet, not picked at all! The fact is though, that in raids there are only so many spots available, and some of those spots are reserved for particular roles, e.g. Tanks and Healers. So no matter how much we would like to include everyone, every time, it is not possible to do so. If 13 people show up, 3 people sit out. If 27 people show up, 2 people still sit out… if 198 people show up, no matter what, somebody must sit out.

There are two types of raid content, Progression content and Farm content.

Progression content is the raid encounters that a guild is still working on. These are bosses that have not been completed, or have been beaten only a few times. These groups are made of the best geared and performance-based players, and often times are very class/spec dependent.

Farm content is the encounters with solid, viable, repeatable strategies that have been refined and streamlined to a point where a group can afford to carry a few under-performers or slightly under-geared players if necessary. These can serve as training encounters for newer raiders, and can provide a good source of gear and/or emblem points for our alts and new members. These groups still must be supported by strong players and good leadership in order to be successful.

Nobody is “too good” or above this content, players should be willing to help out in Farm content if asked. Players that shirk this opportunity to help others may find themselves at the bottom of the list for Progression slots, regardless of gear or skill level. Teamwork and success for ALL raid groups is more important than any one self-centric, self-serving individual.

In our guild, we work on Progression content, but we do not stress on it. We always clear all of the content eventually, no need to be first to do so on a backwater realm like SoE. We still manage to stay within the list of top guilds for content cleared, but again, we are not stressing out about it. We strive to get as many players as we can through all raid content, and this takes some amount of time, training, and patience. This is generally our focus, to get as many players into content and get achievements for clearing bosses for everyone that we can. Some folks get pissy when I say this, or will deny it, but the fact is that we have introduced a helluva lot of players to raiding, and we have trained and geared about half of this realm’s raiders on Alliance side. True story.

Sometimes folks get to sit out, sometimes folks are asked to do lower content. Some players are over-raided in order to help support the rest of the group(s). There is no perfect scenario for every player, every time.

We all should be willing to do our part for the greater good.

Thank you,
- Penelopae, Zen Leader

Some suggestions on how to gain a raid slot…

In our guild, we use a simple formula based on this criteria, and in this order:

Attendance – Performance – Attendance

Those who show up the most, have the best chance of gaining a slot. Of the ones who show up regularly, we look at past performance. If performance is equal, we revert back to attendance. Those who show up the most, have the best chance of gaining a raid slot.

There are ways to hedge your bets, in getting a slot. Here are a few suggestions:

Always be on time. Punctuality does matter.

Always be prepared. If you need a repair after 2 wipes, this tells us that you came to raid without your gear repaired. Bring buff foods and flasks to every raid. Almost always we will provide Cauldrons and Feasts, but do not rely on this. You may be the only one to die in an encounter, or may get DC’d, or something. We are not going to throw down a feast for the sake of one player. Have your own food. Contribute flasks towards the cauldrons. At least offer the cauldron-maker a flask.

Always have your gear properly enhanced Before Raid. Gems, enchants, and all other enhancements should be in place before a raid. Asking for enchants during raid form-up or inside a raid instance is bad form. Be prepared before you come to raid please. Raid leaders and veteran raiders do take notice of these things, and yes, you are inspected often by your peers, count on that.

Professions that are helpful to raid are nice too. Alchemists that are able to create Guild Cauldrons for example, can be a deciding factor. Secondary professions are important too. Fishing and Cooking, players that toss down the Seafood Magnifique display a willingness to help provide for the group. If all else is equal, a player that is known to always bring Feasts to raid... may very well get YOUR raid slot!

But, but, but… I put out awesome DPS! – Yeah, what’s your fishing and cooking level? DOH!

More than anything, personality matters. Nobody wants to spend several hours per night, several nights per week, with rude or obnoxious people. Being considerate of others, being considerate of their time, and being a pleasant person to play with goes a long, long way.

Be prepared, know your class, research the encounters, show up on time, and be a pleasant person to play with… These are the most important aspects of getting a raid slot.

Experience and gear, you’ll get. We can teach you the fights and help with gearing issues. We can help you to become a great raider. But, we cannot make you into a good person to play with. THAT responsibility is entirely on YOU.

Thank you for considering my thoughts on this,
- Penelopae, Zen Leader

Duel spec is key for times when fewer tanks or healers are necessary.

I forgot to mention that, Thanks for the response Kahn.

Dropping my two copper on the topic (mostly from a GM/Raid Lead standpoint), hopefully it is welcome.



Time is money, friend
Raids shouldn't take hours to organize, anyone leading a raid should have the foresight to try to have the raid set and ready to go at raid time. Set a time and stick to it. Everyone in Dominance knows that our invites go out at 6:45p servertime and first pull is at 7pm. It is equally irresponsible of a Raid leader to keep his Raiders waiting as it is for a Raider to AFK and slow the raid.




Strats aren't for everyone
Just cause someone watched Tankspot, L2Raid, etc... doesn't mean that that exact strat is the only way to do it or the best way for your raid group. Recognize your groups strengths and weaknesses so you can apply them to the mechanics of the fight as opposed to throwing the group at the strategy. Its easy to figure out who can handle certain roles when needed and those that need to let experience set in before moving on to extra activities during a fight. IMHO, knowing these and focusing on the mechanics vice the strategy gets things dead.

We attack an encounter with different approaches to see what works best for us, and its been whats worked best for us for a long time.





The truth of Snow-Flakes
Many people talk a big game and the majority of those looking to raid don't think they can be the problem. Every person playing this game can improve, once again IMHO, and the best Raiders I've raided with know this. Believe it or not, as unique as everyone feels they are, we're all playing the same 30 specs that the 20,000 other guilds are using and you either can learn from others and improve or sit in denial pointing the finger at everyone/everything else (which eventually leads to the Raid leader having to sit you cause you're not getting the job done).


There's a good bit of respect to be earned (from me at least) in being able to admit fault, say you're sorry and correct things when needed. That sentiment works doubly for me, and I try to represent that by being the first to say when I've screwed something up.


On the topic of flakes, whats with people applying to a guild like the guild hopelessly needs them or they're not going to succeed (especially when they are already succeeding)? Or applying to Raid then not showing up to do it? First impressions go a long way, so how bout people earn the right to have things come up before they get offended when you get kicked out of a raiding guild for not showing up within the first few weeks. This is why guilds have trial periods and speaking personally, we're very upfront on our expectations.

Probably the best solution here is to always run one more 10 man group than you want to, so that you're never PUGing on the nights that matter the most. So many times I've wanted to drop down to one group (because it's rough constantly recruiting). But it's such a boon to be able to train and get to know replacement raiders before you need them (and there will always be vacations, emergencies, and burnout).

Outside of that, we don't recruit unless we have a spot to fill in that alt group (the progression group is always full); if we do, they come in as a casual/standby, and they earn their regular spots as they open up. Casual people swap to active raiding as active raiders take breaks and go casual. It really works well. Checking rosters, recruiting and keeping track of absences happens on a daily basis, and good communication is the key to making sure groups happen.

We don't keep DPS unless they're stellar. Dps are the easiest spot to replace, so we put extremely high standards on them. We're generally patient, and give people time to develop and grow before we give up on them, but we're very adamant about not carrying bad dps.

Tanks and healers get a bit more leniency, although we always try to encourage people to improve and grow. The reality is that tank and heals will always be a commodity; so they get coddled a little bit. We also stress to our DPS that heals/tanks are essential to keeping the groups going strong and healthy, and it's a very big deal when raiders make healy/tanky alts available to sister groups to make sure raids always happen.

Over time, we've just developed an amazing crowd of people, where the regulars feel really devoted to the raids, to making sure they happen. We have text messaging networks, people pass on info when there are problems, or hop online to fill-in when we send messages. Just amazing people who really make it work. They're committed not to the raid leader or the guild, but to each other.

And we listen to our long-term raiders the most, the people who've been showing up 2-4 nights for months and years. We're very sensitive to making sure chemistry is good. You get people who come in, cause drama, disrupt things; so the moment we extend an invite, we make it clear that it's always a trial thing until we offer full membership. Not everyone fits in every group, and sometimes the best thing a malcontent player can do is move on and find a different environment. There are a lot of good guilds out there, and each has it's own unique personality and characteristics. I actually learned a lot about this, leaving my very first raiding guild ever, GfB (whom I adore in retrospect).

So many problems are solved by raiding with people you'd be proud to call your friends. ^^

As in the past I raided in other guilds, I had to earn my spot in a 25 man and know my stuff because I knew I could be easily replaced, so yes I do believe people should earn their spots. Taking the time to watch the fights, to know your class and if don't... use the tools that are easily accessible to you via asking advise from other guilds you know are progressing thru the content or go to mmo-champions forums, EJ, or Wow forums, ask mr.robot.

Attendance and attitude are key for me, I expect you when I'm in the same raid as you to pull your weight, I don't want to carry people through raids then people don't learn, if you are willing to learn and change then you will do well, if you don't well...

Do you expect a raid slot?

No, if there is someone better at the job than I am I expect to be replaced or get better so there is no question.

Do you feel that sometimes people are going to haft to sit out?

Yes, some players/classes are not optimal in all instances within a raid. Either there are fights where some people just don't function or a fight mechanic where a particular class just isn't viable.

How does sitting out make you feel?

At the moment this isn't something I have had to worry about but in the past, hasn't really bothered me. We were on a rotation, I knew when I was going to be in and made sure to research and prepare so I wouldn't be carried.

How would you set up a raid if you had, lets say, too many dps and only enough tanks and healers to support one raid group?

I would look at fight mechanics, experience of who was available, and the gear needs. If I can afford to take a person or 2 that really needs gear but not entirely familiar with the fight I am ok wiping once or twice to get them a chance.

How you would handle the fact that the people you run with one night will most likely not be the same people your run with the next?

I really don't see how this could be a viable plan for consistency. Grinding through raids night after night with a similar group makes it easier as you progress. You tend to pick up on what each person can handle, and also see where problems may lie, also people by nature are cliqueish. Constantly shifting people around in scenarios like these adds to much un-needed stress to the situation.

Some really good responses... Nice thread Biggestbear.

It really is good to see folks in a discussion forum actually discussing something instead of bashing and trolling.

Just imagine if we could all get along long enough to plan, cooperate, and coordinate some massive raids... you know, like on faction capital cities...
*hint, hint =)

join raid in pvp gear

ask raid leader beforehand if you can need on item you want, make back deal (gold) or flirt with said raid leader to get the better drops (helps if your actually female)

do battlegrounds before raid and if raid asks why your not there tell them your carrying the flag DUH..

gem all appropriate gear in appropriate color codes so you can get extra goodies!!! doesnt really matter wich gems

if unsure about rotation spam the ability that does the most damage, i mean comon it works for arcane mages

if you already know fight and raid leader asks you to go watch a raid youtube strat...just go watch whatever you boobtube flick you want or even if you dont know fight do it anyways.. hey you'll learn by experience.... being bored sucks

if raid leader starts to emo or whine about raid progression just open up vent and tab over his name > miscellaneous > special effets and lower voice to 5 percent or just mute him all together and listen to your favorite music band...no justin bieber!!! >=(

once your toon is geared shop other guilds that are more progressed and tell previous guild sorry guys my GOOD OLD FREIND FROM WAY BACK is inviting me to (whatever leet) guild

repeat process in other guild

have a nice day