World of Warcraft®

A wise man once said: "There are no perfect men in the world; only perfect intentions."-Azeem from Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves

@Shade: The intent was to do a cliff notes version, I am sorry you feel slighted, I was only doing something that was asked for, it was brought up at the meeting and in the past a few folks have asked for it to be done before. I would normally redirect them to another site, I was also under the impression that though we may not all get along we should attempt to respect and work together as best as we can when I left the meeting the other eve.

I have always said the Community is our best resource. This was not to downplay your hard work, only to create a short, condensed version that is a quick at a glance read. I also stated I was not the original writer, and it was modified from a previous game.

For those who don't want to scroll through walls of posts and numerous texts that is why it was asked for. I honestly feel your in depth version is great for those who want to really sink their teeth into the nitty gritty full aspect of RP in greater detail.

Not all people learn the same way, some people for example can't focus on a book to actually read it they need it in audio format because it is how they learn, some folks need to just get in there and learn on the fly.

I honestly don't see why both cannot coexist as the intention is the same, to help people understand RP. There is no perfect solution here nor appeasing everyone. Credit is given where it is due, and I applaud your in depth efforts to make sure all aspects of RP are concise and clearly addressed in the sticky.

I will be honest, I have no idea what your RP background is. Mine comes from years in UO and WoW as well as working as a volunteer for WoWStratics and doing some pieces for Beckett's Massive Online Gaming Monthly. If you total the years its about 15 now if not 16 (OMG I am getting old.) Does it make me any better, no? Does it mean I am 100% right, no? All it means is we have collective experience to share and did so in different ways to reach the same goal: Help Roleplayers.

The arguing etc. does one thing discourage folks. I would rather work collectively and address the wants and needs of all Roleplayers in the best way possible then fight over different versions of something that address the same thing. Kalico made an excellent suggestion, about putting in a directory. It would make it a lot easier for folks and break down things for easier navigation. Why can't we incorporate both?

I get what you are saying and already suggested merging them. However by doing that it still means that there is long thread that will need an index for quicker navigation. Only one person can do that.

I just don't don't get the bickering over something good intended and something that roleplayers have asked for.

Shortened versions added to Shades thread, if we can get a directory set up in hers we just accomplished both and worked together, end of problem.

Just make your own mega-thread. I'll have mine deleted.

@Kalico unfortunately tone does not come across in text well and verbage plays a big part in how things are recieved and none of us are not guilty or wording something badly that can be misconstrued as condescending or give the other person the feeling like they did something wrong, or are being talked down too, even thopugh the suggestion is an attempt to help. In this case I tried to take your suggestion and added to the thread as that was what it was originally intended for.

If a directory is added people can go through what they feel they need to take from it kinda like a salad bar. It becomes a positive collaborative effort.

That was not meant to be taken that way at all. I totally get you want to help and I was happy to take your suggestion and use it. I think you are misreading what I was saying. However, even though you did post it as a suggestion I felt that with this coment:

You say folks will not want to read through what you describe as walls of posts. However, I know for a fact most folks won't navigate through the boards looking for one particular thread.Right now your efforts, as well intended as they are, are simply flooding the boards. If you believe people are not going to put in the effort to read a long guide then you can't possibly expect them to sift through the forums trying to separate the roleplaying advice threads from regular forum banter threads.

Was a bit on the terse and curt side of things though you may not have meant it that way. And made it sound like by doing what others wanted I was creating a problem which was not my intent at all.

04/23/2012 11:34 AMPosted by Shade

Just make your own mega-thread. I'll have mine deleted.

Forgive me if I seem to come off a bit heavy-handed on this, but the time for flowery speech has long since passed.

You know... folks may not like my RP. They may not even like me for that matter, which is none of my business and I really could care less. But I will say this...

When I started on SoE years and years ago, I had no intention of RPing. When I did happen into it, I used Shade's guide as a starting point. I still made tons of mistakes and had my share of facepalm moments, but what she wrote did help push me in the right direction. The errors were on me, not her.

Maybe it took a bit of my time, but I cared enough to want to read it so I sat down and invested part of myself. If people want something badly enough, they'll "suffer" through things and make such an investment. That goes for anything in life. Could what exists be improved? Perhaps. Toss in an index/table of contents or something of the sort. Should someone have checked with Shade since she's still here? Oh, yeah.

Not to point out what's painfully obvious, but the stickies that seem to come under scrutiny and are aimed at for replacement are only for the folks that are actually still here on server, while other stickies that are dead and written by people no longer here or in game are left alone. Perhaps focusing on things that aren't actually useful and no longer maintained before derailing things by people still willing to be part of the community would benefit us all?

Anyway... this bickering? Look at what this has wrought.

We have one of our oldest community members who has basically chucked in the towel. We have folks who have their knickers in a twist because their suggestion for "improving" by recreating was met with "wait a sec..." and suggestions for not reinventing the wheel but giving someone's efforts the chance to still live.

If I put as much time or effort as Shade did into wanting to help people and had it undermined, you bet I'd be defensive. Have I lived through that? Well... I've a single word to answer that question: WordPress. But that's neither here nor there.

Stop wasting time and reinventing what exists. We can always make small, simple improvements and move forward faster.

This isn't about seeing your name in print and feeling important. In the long run, if you want to be important to people, become important by giving them something worthwhile. You earn this.

As I said in the meeting, the best way to create RP is to roleplay, and the best way to show folks how to RP is to give an example.

As Elvis sang it, "A little less conversation, a little more action, please."

Go.

Bella, while I do appreciate the effort of coming to my defense, I honestly don't need defending, here. After getting my feathers ruffled last night, I decided to step away from the computer and get a good night's sleep after a round of thinking, and woke up much clearer in the head and not upset in the slightest.

I do have to apologize for getting huffy about my thread being re-written in whatever context for whatever reason -- it clocks in at a little over 10,000 words (Trust me, I checked XD ), and it took me quite a bit of time to put together. So in a way, it's one of my little word-babies. I have lots of those running about.

That said, the original guide was written several years ago, before the forums changed. It's old. Back then, I suspect people liked reading my long-windedness -- but it's hardly my place to get upset that people today don't care for it. (I could go on a suitably long-winded sidetrack here about the general state of education in the US, but I won't. Promise! ;D )

And when I thought about it, I mean really thought about it, I realized I was arguing about a guide that is...well, I suppose it's a bit of a relic, isn't it? If we have new roleplayers, roleplayers that are taking part in things, and they're saying they'd like things changed ... well it's not my place to force them to read through my word-baby, not if it's not getting them the information they'd like in the amount of time they'd like.

It was written for the people that were here at the point it was written, and that army of faces is by and large no longer here. Who am I, the cranky granny sitting on the porch in her rocker and waving her cane at all the young kids, forcing them to listen to endless tales of the old days? ...well I'd certainly hope that's not me! XD

Tali, I'd suggest that probably the best course of action here is to take all your threads and put them together in one post - make an index out of the first post and link it to the various parts. Then they can sticky that one whoppin thread so people can click through it at their leisure and read the little snippets of this and that. I'll go ahead and have my thread deleted, and trust me, it's not a problem -- I just had to get over the fact that perhaps one of my word-babies has outlived its usefulness, and it's time for it to take a well-deserved retirement.

If nothing else, this entire experience has given me much food for thought and possible material for next week's column, so I can create another word-baby elsewhere. (MOAR WORD BABIES! BABIES EVERYWHERE!)

I suspect it's high time I take Medivh's path and go find my place among the legends of the past. ;)

If that's what you choose, Shade, I respect it and wish you good luck.

As for everything and anyone else? I have only a couple of bits to leave you with for mental mastication:

"What’s past is prologue." --William Shakespeare

"There's always someone younger and hungrier coming down the stairs after you." --Cristal Connors, Showgirls (1995)

;)

I thought it was best to add to your thread since the information is still very pertinant. I did add something on Chat based Roleplay. As you said your self it was set up to be added to with other suggestions etc. Would be great to have you re-post the handling drama thread too. I beleive my other half asked you if he can use it on his forums, since it was choc-ful-of aweseom information.

And its not broken in the least, just more in depth. Most old school roleplayers will take the time to read all of it, getting someone with a shorter attention span and more used to short things in the now more than ever digitized world may not. I still think Kalico's suggestion of a guide or index will help tweak things a lot.

Or if you would like I be more than happy to give you my email and maybe we can work on something together that updates everything. For those of us who have seen the numerous changes on the server since vanilla (OMG the Warlock/Pally mount quest) etc. We all have to roll with the changes. We all have to grow and adapt. As with IG changes others things change too.

I was a tad overzealous in my desire to help, and do apologize that you felt like your toes were stepped on, I am one of those people that when someone pointed out something and asked for it jumped at it to get things moving since I had a shorter version That we have been using for a while and found it helped people who were very -green- to RP.

Go ahead and do what I suggested, Tali - put all your snippet posts into a megapost with an index, and I'll have mine deleted. I'll go through what I had there (I still have it saved as a text file), find the bits that might still be relevant (like the wowpedia page info), revise them into smaller chunks and add them to your post as I have time.

I've also got a metric ton of various guides and resources that I've written over the past couple of years for work that I could link as well, if it's okay to link those things -- Kalico, you're probably the best one to answer if that's permissible to do?

If we're starting fresh, we may as well cull the old to make way for the new. No worries! :)

Shade I wanted to catch you in game but it seems you're not on at the moment. I just wanted to say that I don't want yours deleted. I find nothing wrong with yours. Like Bella I read your post and got a great guideline as to how to start my WoW career. I can't tell you what to do but I can implore you not to have it removed. Sure Talibah should consolidate her posts and index them but I see no harm in leaving yours up for those of us that don't want to see it go.

*Pokes a shrouded head from the confines of his ancient coffee sepulcher*

It is in poor form to shorten an author's work without their expressed permission, I am not sure it really needs explanation, especially for someone who states they have been roleplaying for 15 years now. Had I gone and submitted an abridged version of some of your rp stories because it struck the fancy of myself and 7 of my friends you would be vexed. Go ahead deny it ;)

It is fine that your gathering of a few people spoke for the entirety of the community and decided you wanted to condense Shade's post into an easy to digest ADD friendly pill, just remember there are more people in this community than just you and your friends.

Now there's a silhouette I've not seen in quite some time.

Good to see you, Rev.

While the majority of your post was dead accurate (pun rather intended), I'd recommend a bit of caution regarding generalizations of those in attendance of community meetings. If not, you're just as guilty of the accusation of speaking for others and making assumptions.

It goes without saying that the way this all went was worthy of a Picard-level facepalm. Hopefully there has been a good lesson learned, as it serves as another example that respect and open communication are key regardless of someone's level of participation in the community or whatever pedigree to which they rabidly cling. We all have to respect the "space" of others, even if we can't stand them. In the end, the right to swing your fist ends where someone else's nose begins (figurative you).

Being quite realistic, we're all just geeky people playing in a fictional sandbox. In this polygon-filled world, some of us jot out fan fiction as a way to ignore the ticking clock. That's all it is when you strip away the layers of "LOOK AT ME"isms and guild tags and whatever else we use to feel good: fan fiction and a community of people clustered by happenstance in one place, just trying to do our thing.

More than likely, no one here is going to write the next Great American Novel, and this will all be just as important in fifteen years as a high school letter jacket is to folks in their thirties. Claiming anyone here is more than what they truly are is just ego and silliness (and maybe just a wee bit sad).

My advice to folks? Have fun with all this, but respect the boundaries of others. You may loathe the efforts of another or think you are superior, and that's fine. Just remember, though, that you may be slightly blind to truths.

Believing your own press is a rather hazardous habit.

I was at that meeting and I didn't agree that we needed a shorter version. ONE person brought up that they didn't like reading long posts. I feel like we lost a valuable resource of very accurate very important information that should be at the TOP of these forums by having that thread unstickied. I understand the guilty by association mentality but it's not true, and some of us are very upset about all of this because it's clear that thought was left out of the equation regarding the majority of it.