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Is there any precedence in lore for an enchanted item that possessed some form of intelligence or sentience?

Is there any support in lore for the useage of souls to enchant an item?

I suppose these may be silly questions. Off the top of my head (this moment) I can think of items like Frostmourne, the Lich King's armor, the truncheons (or whatever item) made by Gul'dan and worn by the first Death Knights. I guess these would be examples of powerful items imbued with living souls, I've just honestly never looked at it in the light of them being "enchanted items". I've no idea why, it seems rather obvious now.

But perhaps I am mistaken in some part, and so I pose these two queries to the community to see what further information I can glean from your collective wisdom :)

It can be argued that Frostmourne is a sentient weapon, but others will point out that it’s just a glorified telephone. The Quel'Delar could also be considered intelligent as you must subdue and fight it. There are weapons in Naxx that appear to fight on their own as do the weapons in Tempest Keep (end boss).

In my opinion it would be an extremely rare thing. Sentience is usually accompanied with the existence of a soul. To wield such a weapon, would require you to have a stronger will than that of what you hold or in the end become a puppet of that which you wield.

Soulstones hold the soul and intelligence of a being, but most people consider these to be fragile and are kept in safe places to safeguard what is contained in them. I don’t see them being imbued onto armor or a weapon. If they were you would still have to have a will check in order to use such a thing.

So you can see a bit of existence of what you are asking about in lore. It’s possible, but not run of the mill. No willing soul would wish to be trapped in a metallic tomb, let alone be wielded and used as a tool. If you were to find such a weapon / armor, think about how such thing happened in the first place.

Please note these are my opinions.

04/30/2015 11:31 AMPosted by Noikona

If you were to find such a weapon / armor, think about how such thing happened in the first place.

Right. Such a thing would be rather rare. I'm again reminded of the Lich King's armor. It's always been told that Ner'zhul's soul was put or trapped inside that armor as a form of punishment and torture. I'm editorializing a bit but that's how I've always understood it. I never really understood it to be more than a prison, and that Ner'zhul was still himself just trapped inside the armor frozen in Northrend. Frostmourne too never seemed to be more than a container (or prison) for souls, much like soul gems. Nothing more. Now I'm wondering if I'd been oversimplifying things.

Perhaps Ner'zhul as we knew of him in life fundamentally changed when he was put into that armor. Would that be considered a form of enchanting? Did the Nathrezim 'enchant' that armor using Ner'zhul's soul? I know that when Arthas donned the armor they both Arthas and Ner'zhul fused to become (as I understand it) a singular unique being. For all intents and purposes a new being. But now I wonder.

How different was Ner'zhul in life from his form as enchanted armor? How much of him changed when he was put into that armor? When he joined with Arthas and they became the Lich King, did Ner'zhul as we knew him cease to exists? [Spoiler Alert] After he was separated from Arthas, did he remain forever changed? Or like Arthas did some of good'ol Ner'zhul return?...if so how much?

All rhetorical questions of course, but the idea has my curiosity peaked. This bit specifically about the Lich King is merely an example. I'm more curious about the general implications.

04/30/2015 11:31 AMPosted by Noikona

It can be argued that Frostmourne is a sentient weapon, but others will point out that it’s just a glorified telephone. The Quel'Delar could also be considered intelligent as you must subdue and fight it. There are weapons in Naxx that appear to fight on their own as do the weapons in Tempest Keep (end boss).

That's interesting! I'd never heard Frostmourne called a telephone, though that comparison makes sense. IIRC its described as having an insatiable hunger for souls, so I wonder if that could be a sign of a basic (perhaps primal) form of intelligence.

I've not delved far into much elvish lore so I don't know really anything about Quel'Delar, but I know of those weapons at the end of Tempest Keep. I'd read that Kael'thas was suppose to have been an unparalleled master enchanter, as evidenced by those weapons that fight without any master to wield them. I wonder if he used souls in his enchanting, thus providing those weapons with the intelligence required to act on their own, or if he'd used his enchanting skill much like a computer programmer and simply 'imbued' each weapon with a rather complex string of commands and the power to execute them...and so simulated intelligence.

Heh :) maybe I'm making this more complex than was intended...

Well, I don't recall any particular item in the WoW universe having sentience (outside of the various robot AI that exist) there have been a number of cases of souls being used to empower statues. This was common among the Zandalari and the Mogu. Granted, it's more useful to empower a giant statue to allow it to move and fight on it's own, but logically, something similar should work for weapons and armor. In the Zandalari example, the people volunteered as sacrifices so they can serve the greater empire. So a soul wouldn't necessarily have to be coerced into being used like this, but might need a compelling reason to volunteer.

Most items that I can think of are, for lack of a better term, soul imbued. Things that immediately come to mind are things like the Essence of Eranikus, or the Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron. Then you have things like the Dragon Soul, which are filled with, well, soul, but not sentient.

There's all of the Titan constructs, but I think that falls under Temperius's mention of robot AI. One might make an argument for the elements--as shaman communicate with them, anyway--for being sentient, though not really items.

Then there was the whole thing where the essence of the Sunwell turned into Anveena for a while, but I'm not sure that's what you're talking about.

I am curious of the context in which you want to use this, though ^^

Or the weapon from SOO that whispered to you. I think it was Desecrated Image of Gorehowl? Really creepy the first time I heard it. "Kill them all..."

05/01/2015 07:01 AMPosted by Zephilyn

Really creepy the first time I heard it. "Kill them all..."

*sighs* That was the weapon? Here I thought it was my own thoughts.... oh well.

05/01/2015 05:09 AMPosted by Irilin

I am curious of the context in which you want to use this, though ^^

Current story and background development for (perhaps) various characters. It all depends on how much I can learn of the various things in lore. The more I can understand how they're handled and presented the better. I don't want to get much more specific than that, only because ideas are still forming.

I need moar data-input!...which consists mostly of me digging around. So many great tips and mentions here too! Those help a lot :)

Wouldn't the Skull of Gul'dan count, as well? Beyond the Dark Portal has it talking to Ner'zhul.

05/01/2015 07:01 AMPosted by Zephilyn

Or the weapon from SOO that whispered to you. I think it was Desecrated Image of Gorehowl? Really creepy the first time I heard it. "Kill them all..."

I thought that was the Corrupted Ashbringer way back when (the "Kill them all..." bit also occurs for new death knight characters going into the Realm of Shadow for their deathchargers). I remember listening to the soundbites when I first heard of it, when Naxx was first released nine years or so ago.

05/01/2015 07:59 PMPosted by Liyu

Wouldn't the Skull of Gul'dan count, as well? Beyond the Dark Portal has it talking to Ner'zhul.

It does, but when he finds it, Illidan takes most of the power out of the skull and brings it into himself, making him part-demon. Why he keeps the skull, however, is unclear; perhaps this is why. It's also possible that, when he took the powers into himself, he took that little voice along with it, and he literally has a voice in his head right up to the moment he dies in the Black Temple.

[quote="172592926425"] right up to the moment he dies in the Black Temple.

...The Black Temple was just a setback? >.>

05/02/2015 04:27 AMPosted by Ketiron

and he literally has a voice in his head right up to the moment he dies in the Black Temple.

Speaking of the Black Temple, and sorta related the the topic of Enchanted Items... Another lore question:

When did Necromancy historically become forbidden in the human realm?
Talking about Lordaeron way back at the founding of Dalaran. Maybe even back to the original 100 humans that the High Elves trained for their help in the Troll Wars. I'm curious. Is it likely that for a time in those early years that everything was being tested and that nothing was taboo? Kel'thuzad was a powerful and well respected mage of the Kirin Tor iirc...who was forbidden to study necromancy at the time it became forbidden by law, forcing him underground. It makes me wonder what other things might have been "tinkered" with before the Kirin Tor dropped their hammer on things.

Also, iirc, weren't the High Elves called in to correct issues the humans had created within Dalaran more than once because those magi were being so careless with their work?

If so, imagine the sorts of relics that may still exist. Things that they had created. Things no body even knows exist.

I would imagine that interfering with the "proper rest of the dead" has been a no-no for about as long as there's been magi to possibly practice it, ranked fairly close to warlock magic for its "evil properties". I think this taboo was particularly reinforced by the fact that the Horde used various forms of it during the First and Second Wars (the death knights in particular), and Kel'Thuzad's experimentations were ongoing in the period between the Second and Third, the period during which the Lich King - who at the time was just Ner'zhul's disembodied spirit trapped in a giant astral ice cube - arrived on Azeroth and began building up the Scourge.

05/03/2015 08:11 AMPosted by Ketiron

, and Kel'Thuzad's experimentations were ongoing in the period between the Second and Third,

Wasn't he kicked out of the Kirin Tor for refusing to cease his necromantic studies?
Seems I remember he started studying/cataloging necromancy purely for the scholarly interest, but at some point he began to believe that it was superior to all else and merited deeper study, which naturally the council forbade. idk, I could be completely mistaken :)

What if we go back to before the orc and knowledge of fel/warlock magics? Back between the times of the original 100 and around the time of the establishing of Dalaran when being a human mage was still a new and strange thing. Before the Kirin Tor. Would it be too much of a stretch to think that perhaps it was a magical free for all?...'free for all' in that mages studied what they wanted with emphasis on discovery and pushing limits.

I just wanted to point out that there's actually a whole prestige class/class (I forget) in Pathfinder that revolves around a sentient weapon. I'm gonna go fall over now, and maybe find more info on this. Good night!

Kalecgos was able to temporarily fuse the spirit of Tarecgosa into the player after she dies protecting him. After being empowered as the new Aspect for the Blue Dragonflight, Kalecgos strengthens the bond between Tarecgosa's spirit and the player. After empowering the staff with essences from Firelands bosses, they are then able to permanently bond Tarecgosa's spirit into the staff that becomes Dragonwrath. Tarecgosa whispers to the player every so often during this legendary quest chain, giving words of comfort and encouragement.

Not sure if it's helpful for what you're working on, but it's another example of a spirit bonded to an item (and maybe an example of sentience as it talks to you).

06/06/2015 11:42 PMPosted by Rhudran

I just wanted to point out that there's actually a whole prestige class/class (I forget) in Pathfinder that revolves around a sentient weapon. I'm gonna go fall over now, and maybe find more info on this. Good night!

Oooo! This sounds very interesting. If you happen across more of this I'd be very interested. I'll poke around myself and see what I can dig up in the D&D realms.

06/08/2015 06:38 AMPosted by Athena

Kalecgos was able to temporarily fuse the spirit of Tarecgosa into the player after she dies protecting him. After being empowered as the new Aspect for the Blue Dragonflight, Kalecgos strengthens the bond between Tarecgosa's spirit and the player. After empowering the staff with essences from Firelands bosses, they are then able to permanently bond Tarecgosa's spirit into the staff that becomes Dragonwrath. Tarecgosa whispers to the player every so often during this legendary quest chain, giving words of comfort and encouragement.

Not sure if it's helpful for what you're working on, but it's another example of a spirit bonded to an item (and maybe an example of sentience as it talks to you).

That's very interesting. I hadn't actually thought of that example (and that's something I should go back and complete :) ). Thanks for that info!

04/30/2015 10:23 AMPosted by Caileanmor

Is there any precedence in lore for an enchanted item that possessed some form of intelligence or sentience?

Is there any support in lore for the useage of souls to enchant an item?

I feel like offering some background on how these questions developed. Pull on your boots because I'm about to get deep into some things.

I still occasionally visit the old Skyrim forums, which I'd previously been very active on since Dawnguard's release... but not so much these past couple of years. When I first posted this I was gradually regaining interest in the characters I had developed in that world and came across a thread dealing with enchanting that spoke from an rp perspective rather than from a game play view. It made me sit back and think about it in a completely different light.
For those that aren't aware, Enchanting within the Elder Scrolls universe (I assume, I've only been involved since Oblivion) utilizes souls captured within soul gems. Each gem is graded upon the quality of soul captured, which is determined by -which- soul is captured. White souls are considered anything within the 'beast/monster' realm. Black souls have only one grade and are considered the most powerful, but are only obtained from 'people' regardless of race. Its an interesting game play mechanic but also became a fascinating lore/rp dynamic for me to consider.
Needless to say I ran with some concepts and determined that specific weapons my character had created possessed varying levels of sentience since they were all created with the use of black souls. Immediately that character's overall story became much more interesting as she now essentially had these other personalities with whom she had to interact who could also have a degree of influence over her story.

Several days before I posted this I sat back and began to apply this new point of view to my warcraft characters. Obviously Elder Scrolls mythos does not mix with WoW's. Most enchanted items in WoW are created without the use of actual souls...making them (obviously) soul-less objects. Tools and nothing more. It's almost as if the enchanter were writing or rewriting a computer program to create a specific tool or tool set. These enchanted items just 'do' what they've been programmed to do. Most are fairly simple but their programming can become quite complex as the skill of the enchanter grows, but just about all of these share a same quality. They can not act for themselves in any capacity and so require a 'wielder's input' so to speak.

However, there are a few items within WoW which were created using an actual soul or group of souls depending on the item in question. There are also items which possess no actual soul but behave with some degree of lesser sentience due to the unique skills of the enchanter. Its these items that now fascinate me the most. I'd very much like to do for a few of my wow characters what I did with my Skyrim character and work in one or more enchanted items that either possess a particular soul and is therefore sentient to some degree, or was created to possess a simple form of sentience...which led to my two original questions.

It's a fun idea I've been rolling around for some time now but I'd hate to go through all the work of writing it into a character's story only to discover that I'd committed a cardinal rp sin by doing something that by rights my character(s) shouldn't be able to do.

So that's pretty much it. :)

It's certainly an interesting idea. Gives you a lot of additional room for character development without necessarily adding or changing something about an existing character concept. It could even be fun to develop backstory for the item itself.

Maybe there was a promising young mage in the Kirin Tor that many felt could one day hold a spot on the council. His daughter fell sick with an unusual illness and no matter what he tried or who he asked for help, nothing could be done to cure her. Her body began to fail and her remaining days on Azeroth appeared to be nearing their end. In an act of desperation and panic, he used his considerable skill in enchanting to bind his daughter's essence to his staff. While he tried to keep it a secret, it eventually got out. Binding a human soul to an object was taboo and he soon found himself exiled from Dalaran. Fast forward many years and someone finds a staff that, to their complete surprise, speaks to them with the voice of a young girl.

The naivety of the bound soul being a young girl could lead to some interesting shenanigans. While the character sees danger when entering Onyxia's lair - the girl in the stick sees "Wow! Is that a dragon?! I want to see! Take me closer!"

Sorry, just brainstorming out loud.