World of Warcraft®

I'm going to pre-face this entire post by saying that EVERYTHING YOU'RE ABOUT TO READ IS PERSONAL OPINION, and should not be taken as me trying to state this as fact.

This is simply how I FEEL about the subject of fans, people who enjoy stories like that of the Warcraft universe, and the people who discuss it.

---

I personally feel there's no harm (and in fact it's quite enjoyable) in discussing the plot and the story, and even discussing which parts you did and did not enjoy. But when a discussion turns into nothing but what people didn't like, and how they think it could be "improved", that is no longer a discussion between people enjoying something. That is people discussing the story they -want- to be told, as opposed to the story that IS being told, and that starts getting disrespectful to the person telling the story.

I think that people who look at a story and start picking it apart, saying what they didn't like and why, as opposed to simply sitting back and enjoying the story... they're not reading it for the story at that point. They're reading it because there's a specific direction they WANT the story to go, which means they get upset when it goes somewhere else, or is told in a different way. I play Blizzard games because I sit back, and enjoy the story they have to tell. I seem to be a peculiar rarity that way. I don't pick apart the stories I choose to enjoy. Because that would suggest I don't enjoy the story. Yes, you can say that you pick it apart because you want it to be better, but that's just another way of saying YOU DON'T LIKE IT. You don't like what it did, and if it did this OTHER thing instead, it would be "better". If you're saying "It could be so much better", what you're saying is that you don't enjoy what you're being given, you tolerate it because it makes you think of the story you WANT to be told.

If I'm enjoying a story... I enjoy the story. I'll talk enthusiastically about what parts I enjoyed, I'll speculate about where it's going (I already have a few theories on how things will go for the Legion introduction), and I'll think about parts that I wasn't as fond of if pushed, but that's the thing. I have to be pushed to think of things that I don't like about something, if it's a story I enjoyed. My brain just automatically focuses on the parts I like, rather than what I didn't. Maybe that just makes me weird? Who knows, but it definitely seems to be a rarity among the WoW community - at least among the people who regularly discuss the game like this. And it honestly makes me depressed.

Well, I'll start with this.

You're coming at this from a purist relativist position. What I mean by that is that you've reduced the entire discussion to personal preference which is just too simplistic. There are elements of it that can be discussed and agreed upon - things like whether the story preserves its continuity, or whether the actions of the characters tie back to their prior presentation. I can't cover it all, but there are clear elements of the story that can be discussed, and that we can come to a consensus on.

Past that though, if I'm blunt, it feels like you're selling this: (Warning in advance: the following video contains a fair amount of profanity. Please chase small children out of the room, and do not watch if you yourself are a small child)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8f6QONZd-U

For me, I feel like I'm watching a Shyamalan rendition of Warcraft. That's not painful to me because it's a bad story, not on its face. It pains me because I am a fan of the franchise, and I know that it can be so much better. The thing about that is that people like me, we'll be the last ones to go. The people who don't care or never were invested are gone already. But we'll also be damned if we don't kick and scream while fond memories get eviscerated like this.

As someone who's been following the story since Warcraft 2, trust me when I say I'm familiar with how characters have been portrayed in the past.

I'm fully aware that I probably go TOO far to accept Blizzard's explanations of things. That's not to say I'm not aware when they're pulling it out of their !@#, but if it makes for an interesting story, or brings back interesting characters that were maybe killed off too soon (and I'm referring to MORE than just Illidan here), than I honestly don't mind. Because yeah, it's an asspull, but outside of a few rather... notorious incidents (cougheredarcough), it doesn't actively contradict information previously given.

Take Muradin for example. Was he, for all intents and purposes, killed off in Warcraft 3? Yes. Did Blizzard simply up and change their mind for Wrath of the Lich King? Oh hell yeah. Do we mind? Not really - because the scenario they propose is acceptably believable within the Warcraft universe. Injured and given amnesia, but not killed. Arthas was way too preoccupied to actually check, or finish the job. He assumed he was dead and walked away.

If Blizzard screws up, I'm more than happy to point it out. Warlords had an awesome concept, but the execution was very poor - between Doomhammer getting reduced to a two-scene wonder who gets killed off way too quick, to failure to make the Iron Horde feel threatening, to way to sudden a transition to SURPRISE, FEL ORCS AND DEMONS, to my own thoughts on how the Legendary chain was handled, plot-wise... Warlords has a lot of issues.

I by no means advocate IGNORING issues. But what I DON'T like is focusing PURELY on the downsides to the exclusion of all else. THAT is where I think it delves into people just thinking about the story they WANT to be told.

I'm going to be blunt here again. For all of your, honestly, rather notorious negativity over the subjects that you are so passionate about... I sincerely cannot recall a single instance of you discussing events or plot elements that you enjoyed about Warcraft in anything more recent than Warcraft 3, and if it has happened in my presence, it was quickly turned back to negativity. it's why I so frequently comment about having to hold my tongue in discussions with you, because the impression you give off, at least to me, is that you genuinely do not enjoy Warcraft anymore, and simply keep playing either for the gameplay alone, or the community, or because you keep hoping it will become something that... frankly, at this point, it's not. It feels like you only tolerate the plot at this point because it's packaged with the rest of the game. Discussing the plot with you is nothing but negativity despite any best efforts I've seen, and that simply sucks away any joy and enthusiasm I have for it, so I avoid doing it.

This entire subject came up because of, frankly, a lapse in judgment on my part, because I thought to ask you a question that I really already should have known the answer to.

You say that your fond memories are being eviscerated... but I don't feel that way. Just because a story is going in a different direction than you hoped it would, does not destroy that story. It's simply going in a different direction than you thought it would.

Do villains frequently "go crazy" or "get corrupted"? Yes, because in the Warcraft universe, insanity-spawning Old Gods and the Corrupting influence of the Legion are *MAJOR* player and plot elements. Do the Night Elves lose a lot? Unfortunately yes - they are frequently teamed up on, or overpowered in situations where they cannot play to their strengths - hit and run stealth tactics. The Night Elves, as portrayed in Warcraft 3, were NOT strong up-front fighters. They used the environment of their forest to the advantage and fought from the shadows. Ever since Warcraft 3, that sort of environment has been repeatedly denied them in large-scale combats, either by having to fight elsewhere, or by the Horde's deforestation. Should the Night Elves be given some limelight, some positive representation? Absolutely.

But talking about that TO THE EXCLUSION OF EVERYTHING ELSE just makes everyone around you depressed, and tired of hearing it - which you do recognize, and refrain from commenting further on, but the problem is, that's all you do at this point is state that your opinions are known, and stop there. You don't bring up anything new. I never see you actively discussing other subjects, or things you might APPRECIATE in current lore.

For me, I enjoy watching the story as well, I like seeing how it turns out. Sometimes I DO complain about how the story is going, but I understand there is nothing I can really do about it. I will also say parts I do like, such as I DID like the story in Siege of Org, I also ((And I know I might get some hate from this)) LIKED parts of Cata, while I do agree it is still terrible, it still had some good parts, I enjoyed being able to see the different elemental planes, as well with Hyjal. In Warlords, I enjoyed seeing all the different warlords, I also LOVED seeing sassy Khadgar. I've mentioned how much I enjoyed him several times in the past, and he is by far my favorite character in this expansion. Unlike most, I can care less about Yrel. ((I can already feel more hate))

There is also a funny thing called the "Bandwagon effect". It is probably the main reason why these conversations keep going without many people bringing up stuff they liked. Because after a while, people only focus on what they didn't like, practically drowning out anyone trying to say stuff they DID like in the game.

And to your comment on how people complain about the story THEY want, that sort of stuff is the reason I make my own short stories. Because then I get the story I want, along with the story Blizz gives us. Sure, it won't be the same as my story, but that's because it really doesn't need to be. SHOULD it? Absolutely not. Because where would the fun be in reading a story if it is the exact same as every other story? Which is why I enjoy seeing where there story goes, mainly because then if I have an issue with it, I can just write up my own if I so wish and then decide where things play out there. Then come back and enjoy an almost completely different story.

The big issues I usually complain about are more about the gameplay, such as how I mentioned earlier in the day that I didn't like dailies, since it made the game feel like WORK rather than a game. Which in my opinion, isn't the goal of most games. Some games do have a bit of a work feel, but not to the point of being forced to do dailies. It is the reason I can't play a game like EVE, even though I really want to. But I still play this game because I enjoy the social aspects of it, and it is home to many of my oldest friends. The people who make normally "grindy" work, more like hanging out and having fun.

But in the end, each person has their own opinions. Which is part of what makes us humans, we think differently, we feel differently, and we see the world in a whole different way than the person who might be standing right next to you. I do believe everyone has the right to their own opinions, and while people most certainly won't always agree on the same thing, they should still have the right to voice it. Which I don't think the in game chat allows for this all too well, mostly since when there is a lot of people, the chat pushes what they have to bring away, while the majority takes over.

There is something wrong, but with how that is set up, there is no real way to go about it. The chat wasn't designed for long drawn out discussions between two or more groups, mainly because anyone can say anything at anytime. ((Have you ever really tried having a serious discussion on a busy night/day in trade chat?)) With it being like this, it just becomes a jumbled mess where the majority drown out the minority in almost any conversation. Now, I'm not saying that discussions can't happen, I remember a few times where a debate went on and everyone just watched, but those sort of things are rare with 20+ people in the same channel.

Also my own opinion!

@ Blazieth

With regard to most of what you said up to "I by no means advocate IGNORING issues", I'm happy that we agree on this point.

But what I DON'T like is focusing PURELY on the downsides to the exclusion of all else. THAT is where I think it delves into people just thinking about the story they WANT to be told.

I'm going to be blunt here again. For all of your, honestly, rather notorious negativity over the subjects that you are so passionate about... I sincerely cannot recall a single instance of you discussing events or plot elements that you enjoyed about Warcraft in anything more recent than Warcraft 3, and if it has happened in my presence, it was quickly turned back to negativity. it's why I so frequently comment about having to hold my tongue in discussions with you, because the impression you give off, at least to me, is that you genuinely do not enjoy Warcraft anymore, and simply keep playing either for the gameplay alone, or the community, or because you keep hoping it will become something that... frankly, at this point, it's not. It feels like you only tolerate the plot at this point because it's packaged with the rest of the game. Discussing the plot with you is nothing but negativity despite any best efforts I've seen, and that simply sucks away any joy and enthusiasm I have for it, so I avoid doing it.

This entire subject came up because of, frankly, a lapse in judgment on my part, because I thought to ask you a question that I really already should have known the answer to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tcBsryYd6s

I bring this up not just because, but particularly because last night's discussion did include a discussion on elements that I did like - which you seem to have ignored. I specifically mentioned the initial questing in both WoD and MoP - which I've brought up many times as elements that I've liked on the story forum as well (where I do most of my kvetching about the lore) - primarily because it brought back the feeling that WoW was portraying a world with all of these different people in it instead of a story about two or three characters. Those are just examples though - I've brought up positive aspects before, but I'm not going to raise them as a counterweight just for the sake of appeasing you.

You're also not the only one who does this. On multiple occasions, after leaving the topic alone for weeks on end, for example, joining a conversation about it - even if my opinion is specifically solicited about it - is almost guaranteed to get at someone complaining about how I "always" complain about that. Although this complaint has, interestingly, been rarer now that legion has been revealed and now that everyone (myself included) is talking about it.

Now, I get that we're using hyperbole to make a point, but given that a) the point is "stop saying things I disagree with" and b) hyperbole is usually wrong, you can expect me to call you on that all the same.

(Continued)

(Continued from above)

Now, you mentioned specific points on the Night Elves, which I will use this post to reply to. It's a bit condensed because I'm on a time limit and because a previous post was accidentally deleted...

First off, they didn't lose in Cataclysm.

Even during the Horde questing, the Horde finds itself unable to take key lynchpins that the Horde needed to preserve the supply lines of their initial blitz. You get most of this in that central corridor stretching from Raynewood Tower to the Mor'shan Rampart, where they keep filling in despite the Horde's actions. The Night Elf questing follows and shows them undoing most of what the Horde player did. The Horde's primary objective was to take Ashenvale so that they could extract resources from it - which was never effectively realized, and it shows with Garrosh suddenly throwing a massive offensive at Krasarang - despite what the incremental costs would be but for his failures in Ashenvale - for resources. Then in 5.3, the Night Elves are running supply caravans to the Dry Hills - a feat only possible with operational control of the Mor'shan Rampart. At the end of the war, the remaining Orcs are made to leave Ashenvale, with Azshara being ceded.

Unambiguously, the Night Elves come out on top in this campaign. But the problem is the presentation. Even in defeat, the Orcs are made to look "badass". Even in victory, the Night Elves are made to look like weak morons who can't think and and can't do anything right - the Shatterspear vale being the exception. This is a marked change from Warcraft 3, where they were portrayed as best-in-class guerrilla fighters with substantial support from the wilds themselves.

Part of the issue with that is that most of that support was removed for arbitrary and capricious reasons. Malfurion stands there while Horde raids will kill his wife, the druids are bifurcated from the playable race, and they reduced the reason for the failure to include chimaera and mountain giants to a CDev answer. The Night Elves aren't even allowed to ride hippogryphs in warzones anymore - supposedly for "balance" reasons, but that answer is swiftly nullified by Garrosh being able to call on proto-drakes, magnataur, and Kraken "just because", as other races bulk up as well.

We do see the Night Elves losing in Landfall specifically, but here the reasons are even more arbitrary and capricious. Tyrande shows up in Pandaria for reasons in lore that are never explained or elaborated on, but it's clear that she was there just so the writers could make Varian look good in contrast to this leader-of-a-playable race being pitched as an annoying, whining idiot who suddenly tactically wants to do a full frontal assault. We're introduced to a "crack team" of Night Elves, who are killed by a lone blademaster in the same patch, shortly before the commander gives up the location of the divine bell - all so that Kosak can reenact a chapter of one of his comics with an infiltration of Darnassus itself.

This all after Kosak said in a podcast that 5.1 would feature "badass" Night Elves - to soothe some of the discontentment that Blizzard was getting at this point. What really kicked salt in the wound was ALP's Night Elf achievement - named after a Guns n. Roses song where the lead singer kills his girlfriend and buries her in his backyard because she complained too much.

Because, that's badass, I guess.

I'm also not alone in my discontentment. Ghostcrawler was the highest up to mention that it has changed, and the highest up to specifically blame Dave Kosak for it, but I also have the only two polls taken on the subject:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1437695-Do-you-like-the-portrayal-of-night-elves-pre-WoW-or-post-WoW-more
http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215526%27

Most generously, a little over ten percent of the playerbase is satisfied with Night Elves from Cataclysm onward, and this is including those who replied "I like Night Elves in all of their portrayals". The specific "Cataclysm onwards" selection is the lowest in both polls, picking up 1% and 3%, respectively.

Now, one objection I can hear is "but Kyalin, the Night Elves had to look bad in order to make the Horde look strong - it's just the Worf Effect.", but this violates the concept of an MMORPG, where you are encouraged to fashion your own identity and play it. I've been abusing this video on the story forums as of late, but it all feels like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtDZigJaN5I

Now, you may not like to play Night Elves, or may not even like Night Elves at all, but when it comes to a genre that's based on playing out that identity, having Blizzard say "Night Elves suck, play this race instead" is no way to run a railroad.

(Continued again)

Now, I'm sorry for the length of this, but I did have one last unanswered point: your question on Cordana. You admitted yourself that it was silly to bring this up given that you knew what my answer would be, but I do want to reinforce that. You reached out to me specifically, and I indicated that I knew what you were talking about without referencing it, and indicated that my position wouldn't be favorable. Again, I'm not going to say otherwise to appease you - I don't say things just to say them. You, however, continued to press.

On Cordana's corruption, yes, you can say that's just par for the course (though it shouldn't be in my opinion, there should be a discernible reason if you ask me for people suddenly going off the deep end), but my point again is that it's arbitrary and capricious. Here we had a fresh start with a new character, in the middle of WoD's take on Night Elves which is probably the best we've seen since Cataclysm. They were out of the way, they were allowed to be unique (outside of "let's throw everyone into a set of Stormwind guard armor"), they were effective, and Blizzard appeared to roll back some of the attempts to homogenize Elune. To see them then take this character and say "well, she's evil now" .... it's not something that I'll raise hell about, but it is disappointing.

One last thing - no, Legion will not be better. There is no reason to assume that Dave Kosak is suddenly going to see religion on this. Legion will be the worst expansion for the Night Elves we've ever seen, and we'll have two years of it - mark my words.

08/19/2015 11:30 PMPosted by Blazieth

I personally feel there's no harm (and in fact it's quite enjoyable) in discussing the plot and the story, and even discussing which parts you did and did not enjoy. But when a discussion turns into nothing but what people didn't like, and how they think it could be "improved", that is no longer a discussion between people enjoying something. That is people discussing the story they -want- to be told, as opposed to the story that IS being told, and that starts getting disrespectful to the person telling the story.

So. You say you enjoy discussing the parts that you did and did not enjoy. and then go on to basically say (or to the best of my understating) that we shouldn't talk about the parts we did not enjoy. Or rather, you seem to think that we should only be allowed to complain if we have something to praise as well. Maybe I should give a cookie while I share my grievances about the story in WoD?

I've rarely had a good discussion where we both like what Blizz did. It goes something like "OH, yeah I totally loved Garrisons" "Oh yeah, me too". and it ends there. No one really gets super passionate about something going right. So it seems like the negative stuff is overwhelming the positive stuff, but it's really just a matter of people tend to have more to say about the stuff they don't like. (Which i think is what you are saying is the problem?)

I just don't get that. The stuff that needs discussing is the stuff that players take fault with or don't like. That's what needs to be changed or addressed. Though it seemed that another part of what you were saying was that, as players, it doesn't matter what we want, we should just be happy with whatever Blizz gives us. So I doubt we'll ever agree on this.

08/19/2015 11:30 PMPosted by Blazieth

Yes, you can say that you pick it apart because you want it to be better, but that's just another way of saying YOU DON'T LIKE IT. You don't like what it did, and if it did this OTHER thing instead, it would be "better". If you're saying "It could be so much better", what you're saying is that you don't enjoy what you're being given, you tolerate it because it makes you think of the story you WANT to be told.

And? I don't see what's wrong with this. Are you saying I'm wrong because I didn't like something? Do i HAVE to like the story Blizz is telling? Or if i don't, am I supposed to just shut up and suffer in silence? That's just ridiculous.

I find myself agreeing with much of what Kyalin is saying (*GASP*). Especially this.

08/19/2015 11:44 PMPosted by Kyalin

Past that though, if I'm blunt, it feels like you're selling this: (Warning in advance: the following video contains a fair amount of profanity. Please chase small children out of the room, and do not watch if you yourself are a small child)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8f6QONZd-U

And I'll just touch on this since I know I do it.

08/20/2015 07:33 AMPosted by Kyalin

You're also not the only one who does this. On multiple occasions, after leaving the topic alone for weeks on end, for example, joining a conversation about it - even if my opinion is specifically solicited about it - is almost guaranteed to get at someone complaining about how I "always" complain about that. Although this complaint has, interestingly, been rarer now that legion has been revealed and now that everyone (myself included) is talking about it.

Now, I get that we're using hyperbole to make a point, but given that a) the point is "stop saying things I disagree with" and b) hyperbole is usually wrong, you can expect me to call you on that all the same.

(Continued)

I can't speak for others, but by "Always" I'm generally meaning that whenever the topic comes up and you are in the conversation, you always complain (Which i do stand by). You are right - you will go weeks without complaining about night elves. Also to your point a). I don't generally disagree with your point. Night elves have been screwed with royally, it's hard to deny. But you bring up the same points over and over. It's mostly a matter (for me) of "I've heard this same rant at least a dozen times". It's not that you don't have valid points, it's just that I'm very bored of the same old valid points. (This horse is deader than Old Blanchy) I'm sure, with Legion, you'll get lots of new material though. More Night Elf screwing incoming. (not the Goldshire kind....though *eyes Illidan and Tyrande* Who knows). So hopefully we'll get a newer, more updated version soon.

I will preface this with, "This is simply my opinion, take from it what you will." Even though I doubt that it'll matter much.

08/20/2015 07:33 AMPosted by Kyalin

I bring this up not just because, but particularly because last night's discussion did include a discussion on elements that I did like - which you seem to have ignored. I specifically mentioned the initial questing in both WoD and MoP - which I've brought up many times as elements that I've liked on the story forum as well (where I do most of my kvetching about the lore) - primarily because it brought back the feeling that WoW was portraying a world with all of these different people in it instead of a story about two or three characters.

I second this. I debated on putting something similar to this, explaining how there were discussions on the good parts, I even took part in two of them. One of which is the very one Kyalin here mentioned about the intro quests. I ended up not putting it, simply due to the fact it was 4 in the morning and time for me to head to bed.

08/20/2015 12:06 AMPosted by Blazieth

I never see you actively discussing other subjects, or things you might APPRECIATE in current lore.

This statement right here, I took an issue with, simply due to the absolutes you used, conveying the feeling that you really don't see anything else. There was that discussion on Apple toys, or if you want a story related one, a discussion on how sassy the greatest lore character in WoD is during the legendary ring quest is.

In regards to the night elf discussion that also started here, it is something I'll remain out of, simply due to lack of knowledge on the subject. I admit to knowing only enough to poke fun a couple people, which sadly goes a tad far some times.

Short post this time, simply due to just waking up being sleepy.