The Importance of Role Playing Guilds
Thanks Vasilia!
Ehlina asked on Friday that this be posted. It might not be relevant any more, but I just found the request so wanted to get it up here.
Hi guys!
Unfortunately I kinda forgot to do the whole copy/paste thing with the macros before I did the whole character delete thing. Looks like someone will have to start from scratch with that. Good luck! =)
-E's former player
Hi guys!
Unfortunately I kinda forgot to do the whole copy/paste thing with the macros before I did the whole character delete thing. Looks like someone will have to start from scratch with that. Good luck! =)
-E's former player
Well, there's a helpful sticky on the forums to help with that. In the meantime, drop by and give Vasilia's thread a bump with some kind words of your own -- threads sink much faster on the World's End Tavern board than they do on this one, and can always use a new face praising the server.
@ Imperon,
Just some quick thoughts, perhaps slightly negative...but don't take it to heart...it's just how I roll.
Point 1: Stereotypes are bad Mmmkay!
Perhaps you're a bit jaded, finding it easier to characterise someone based upon a guild title rather than the traits that form an individuals personality.
For example, it's parallel to saying "that person is from from Mexico so I can assume he's ......"
Point 2: Incorrect Assumption. Players Aren't Identical.
Your rejection that players can't roleplay (as often or as much) incorrectly assumes all players are identical.
Individuals may want to experience RP; whilst sharing either a - lower, equal, higher - interest in other aspects of gameplay. Primary membership within an RP guild might not best represent that interest balance. Thus 2 given players may derive equal pleasure from RP via different quantities (and quality) levels of RP.
That's not to say that RP guilds are irrelevant. They offer a service to players that possess a stronger interest in RP above other offerings the game can provide.
Whilst I respect that you want to encourage players to favour RP over PvP. I'd assume it'd be more successful if you do it organically through more compelling storylines, rather than what I read betwen the lines as manipulating people into being there.
Point 3: Trade Channel
It's hardly surprising that a negative answer may result as a question for RP. It's been that way for years...probably will always be that way.
Instead of trying to change the behaviour of every single player on the server.... how about just using that macro, or damn... just send the person a whisper.
If anyone is stupid enough to consider the answer of the a few random trade trolls as a reliable information source....then you're probably better without them.
Re: Trade RP Advertising.... I agree.....hit it imo.
s m a s h i n g l a s s
Just some quick thoughts, perhaps slightly negative...but don't take it to heart...it's just how I roll.
Point 1: Stereotypes are bad Mmmkay!
Perhaps you're a bit jaded, finding it easier to characterise someone based upon a guild title rather than the traits that form an individuals personality.
For example, it's parallel to saying "that person is from from Mexico so I can assume he's ......"
Point 2: Incorrect Assumption. Players Aren't Identical.
Your rejection that players can't roleplay (as often or as much) incorrectly assumes all players are identical.
Individuals may want to experience RP; whilst sharing either a - lower, equal, higher - interest in other aspects of gameplay. Primary membership within an RP guild might not best represent that interest balance. Thus 2 given players may derive equal pleasure from RP via different quantities (and quality) levels of RP.
That's not to say that RP guilds are irrelevant. They offer a service to players that possess a stronger interest in RP above other offerings the game can provide.
Whilst I respect that you want to encourage players to favour RP over PvP. I'd assume it'd be more successful if you do it organically through more compelling storylines, rather than what I read betwen the lines as manipulating people into being there.
Point 3: Trade Channel
It's hardly surprising that a negative answer may result as a question for RP. It's been that way for years...probably will always be that way.
Instead of trying to change the behaviour of every single player on the server.... how about just using that macro, or damn... just send the person a whisper.
If anyone is stupid enough to consider the answer of the a few random trade trolls as a reliable information source....then you're probably better without them.
Re: Trade RP Advertising.... I agree.....hit it imo.
s m a s h i n g l a s s
Ok, Glass, I'll bite.
No one chooses to be born in Mexico anymore than they choose to be born in the US, Canada or Pitcairn. At least, I hope people can't choose where they're born because if so, I missed out on a great opportunity to be Scottish.
People do choose their guild affiliations. Claiming that you can't make a judgment call about someone based on their choices is simply bizarre. You do in fact know something, many things I'd argue, about someone depending on how much you know about their guild.
When I see someone in a guild whose name is designed to be insulting, demeaning, intended to "look cool" or attract attention I can in fact make some reliable inferences about that individual. Maybe you can't, Glass, and that's fine. But I'm more than capable of accurately assessing a number of possibilities about a person dependent on my pre-existing knowledge of their guild.
As to your second point, I am well aware that not all players have role playing as their primary goal in game. I believe I addressed that very fact, in fact when I noted that a player's guild affiliation will have some determination on how they spend their time. People who want to raid join raiding guilds, people who want to pvp join pvp guilds, etc.
This is why I am encouraging people who want to role play to join role playing guilds. It most assuredly means you will receive more encouragement from your guild mates (other role players) to engage in role playing. I would hope that people in raid guilds tend to encourage each other to raid in much the same fashion.
My concern, however, is not for raid or pvp guilds, but for role playing guilds and the role playing community. This essay was written to address an issue I see, namely the dilution of the RP community and a need for more cohesion. Players are not identical, Glass. Neither are guilds. A raid guild doesn't need close relations with other raid guilds to function at its full potential. A role playing community needs very strong cohesion amongst its constituent parts to function to its full potential and be able to provide those "compelling story lines" you want.
Our community has those story lines and they are awesome. But they will be even better with more numerous and more active role playing guilds taking part in them. A raid has a 25 man limit. Role playing has no such limit. The more people we have taking part, the better it gets. The more people we can have joining and creating role playing guilds, the better the community gets and the more the community provides for its individual members.
You'll have to keep reading between the lines for any manipulation, because you certainly won't find it in what I'm actually saying. Every individual example I gave in my essay was a positive one. I did not, and will not, target any individual simply because they aren't adhering to the ideas I've set out here.
One of my very favorite role players hasn't been in an RP guild (in fact they tend to be in raid guilds) for several years, at least. As you said, players may have
This particular role player values his raid time over his role playing. That doesn't make me happy, but somehow I don't think my personal happiness is likely to be his primary motivator. I have not once told him he should change guilds. I would be most satisfied if he read this essay and decided to bend his abilities to the benefit of the role playing community instead of toward the acquisition of epics. I know he'd be an asset to any role playing guild. The man's made his own role playing guild in the past.
(continued)
it's parallel to saying "that person is from from Mexico so I can assume he's ......"
No one chooses to be born in Mexico anymore than they choose to be born in the US, Canada or Pitcairn. At least, I hope people can't choose where they're born because if so, I missed out on a great opportunity to be Scottish.
People do choose their guild affiliations. Claiming that you can't make a judgment call about someone based on their choices is simply bizarre. You do in fact know something, many things I'd argue, about someone depending on how much you know about their guild.
When I see someone in a guild whose name is designed to be insulting, demeaning, intended to "look cool" or attract attention I can in fact make some reliable inferences about that individual. Maybe you can't, Glass, and that's fine. But I'm more than capable of accurately assessing a number of possibilities about a person dependent on my pre-existing knowledge of their guild.
As to your second point, I am well aware that not all players have role playing as their primary goal in game. I believe I addressed that very fact, in fact when I noted that a player's guild affiliation will have some determination on how they spend their time. People who want to raid join raiding guilds, people who want to pvp join pvp guilds, etc.
This is why I am encouraging people who want to role play to join role playing guilds. It most assuredly means you will receive more encouragement from your guild mates (other role players) to engage in role playing. I would hope that people in raid guilds tend to encourage each other to raid in much the same fashion.
My concern, however, is not for raid or pvp guilds, but for role playing guilds and the role playing community. This essay was written to address an issue I see, namely the dilution of the RP community and a need for more cohesion. Players are not identical, Glass. Neither are guilds. A raid guild doesn't need close relations with other raid guilds to function at its full potential. A role playing community needs very strong cohesion amongst its constituent parts to function to its full potential and be able to provide those "compelling story lines" you want.
Our community has those story lines and they are awesome. But they will be even better with more numerous and more active role playing guilds taking part in them. A raid has a 25 man limit. Role playing has no such limit. The more people we have taking part, the better it gets. The more people we can have joining and creating role playing guilds, the better the community gets and the more the community provides for its individual members.
You'll have to keep reading between the lines for any manipulation, because you certainly won't find it in what I'm actually saying. Every individual example I gave in my essay was a positive one. I did not, and will not, target any individual simply because they aren't adhering to the ideas I've set out here.
One of my very favorite role players hasn't been in an RP guild (in fact they tend to be in raid guilds) for several years, at least. As you said, players may have
interest in other aspects of gameplay.
This particular role player values his raid time over his role playing. That doesn't make me happy, but somehow I don't think my personal happiness is likely to be his primary motivator. I have not once told him he should change guilds. I would be most satisfied if he read this essay and decided to bend his abilities to the benefit of the role playing community instead of toward the acquisition of epics. I know he'd be an asset to any role playing guild. The man's made his own role playing guild in the past.
(continued)
Edited by Imperon on 4/11/2011 2:29 AM PDT
But he wants to raid, so he's in a raid guild. He probably doesn't even know this essay exists. Most of the people who've read this, and certainly most of the people who have posted replies heard about it through the AllianceOOC channel. Do you really think that many raiders or pvpers are going to slog through the whole thing? Or even any of it? If I wanted to manipulate people, I'd need to choose a better method than what's only a step removed from preaching to the choir.
And finally...trade chat. It's the first mass representation of a server that any new player is going to encounter. Whether we want it to represent us to others or not, it will. If role players start going there to advertise for their guilds, it means that (obviously) we have more role players in trade chat.
Now imagine if someone asks about role playing. Think of the difference in the overall response they'll get if role players aren't in the channel versus if they are. Imagine for a moment how the channel itself might start to change if people can actually get useful information out of it.
Greater influence on trade chat by the server's role players would actually improve the server as a whole. I've no illusions about trade chat ever being a channel that's strictly for the buying and selling of material objects. Frankly, I'm not sure I'd want it to be that even if it was a possibility.
I'd like to see trade chat as a welcoming committee that will give players new to the server the feeling that Cenarion Circle's community is one they want to be a part of. This means that the sooner we have role players reliably spending time in that channel, the sooner the trolls who stink it up with their caustic attitudes will find that their poorly crafted sarcastically sneered words are drowned out by a tide of helpful answers to the question "what's the RP like on this server?"
Well, a guy can dream.
And finally...trade chat. It's the first mass representation of a server that any new player is going to encounter. Whether we want it to represent us to others or not, it will. If role players start going there to advertise for their guilds, it means that (obviously) we have more role players in trade chat.
Now imagine if someone asks about role playing. Think of the difference in the overall response they'll get if role players aren't in the channel versus if they are. Imagine for a moment how the channel itself might start to change if people can actually get useful information out of it.
Greater influence on trade chat by the server's role players would actually improve the server as a whole. I've no illusions about trade chat ever being a channel that's strictly for the buying and selling of material objects. Frankly, I'm not sure I'd want it to be that even if it was a possibility.
I'd like to see trade chat as a welcoming committee that will give players new to the server the feeling that Cenarion Circle's community is one they want to be a part of. This means that the sooner we have role players reliably spending time in that channel, the sooner the trolls who stink it up with their caustic attitudes will find that their poorly crafted sarcastically sneered words are drowned out by a tide of helpful answers to the question "what's the RP like on this server?"
Well, a guy can dream.
Edited by Imperon on 4/11/2011 2:28 AM PDT
And finally...trade chat. It's the first mass representation of a server that any new player is going to encounter. Whether we want it to represent us to others or not, it will. If role players start going there to advertise for their guilds, it means that (obviously) we have more role players in trade chat.
Now imagine if someone asks about role playing. Think of the difference in the overall response they'll get if role players aren't in the channel versus if they are. Imagine for a moment how the channel itself might start to change if people can actually get useful information out of it.
Greater influence on trade chat by the server's role players would actually improve the server as a whole. I've no illusions about trade chat ever being a channel that's strictly for the buying and selling of material objects. Frankly, I'm not sure I'd want it to be that even if it was a possibility.
*Claps*
I spent the weekend in trade chat. Well, I actually had /trade and /guildrecruitment open in a separate window so it wouldn't flood my main window. The CC promotional thread, mentioned above, went active over the weekend and myself and a few others are throwing in our two copper (see what I did there?) and recommending the server whenever we can.
How did things go over the weekend? Just two days putting random AAMS guild advertising in /trade and /guildrecruitment resulted in SIX new applications and interviews with the AAMS. Do you know how many we got in December, January, February and March combined? Two.
Two days and three times the number of applicants vs the last four months. I actually STOPPED advertising Sunday afternoon because I wasn't sure if the AAMS could keep up with so many new people becoming interested! We've taken 3/6 so far, and the other 3 are waiting a reply (if your reading this, I will get get back to you in the next day or so.. we're still trying to get things organized as we didn't expect so many applicants!).
In fact, the advertising worked so well I have had to change my tactics. Now, rather than advertising the AAMS directly and being flooded with applications because we seem to be the only ones advertising their RP guild <hint hint>, I am going to advertise ALL of the RP guilds in a general post, then if anyone contacts me I will send them a list of RP guilds similar to Ehlina's RP Guild Macro to pick from.
Did I run into any problems advertising in /trade and /guildrecruitment? Not a SINGLE one. No replies in either channel like "LOL RP is dead" or anything. In fact, I got a /w from someone in a PvP guild saying it was great to see the RP guilds advertising and that even if they or their guild didn't RP, they've done more world PvP that was because of RP than not, so they see the value of what we do and how our RP story lines directly contribute to their PvP.
Edited by Vasilia on 4/11/2011 10:17 AM PDT
Vasilia, that's awesome. I myself haven't put the LO's guild ad in trade chat recently, we've had our own gaggle of recent recruits to sort through before I do. Soon, however, I'll be back there. We need to keep encouraging other RP guild leaders to do the same. The sort of result you got is exactly what we want for other role playing guilds.
We jussst finissshed RP crussshing sssomeone to the ground in Orgrimmar'sss main gathering place, yesss. More RPer'sss need to RP in the open, to make the atmosssphere change, yesss. Random folk ssstopped and cheered asss we dessstroyed the "LOLRP" elf-creature, yesss. Thisss isss encouraging to usss, yesss.
Glass, I think you're missing the point here: Imperon isn't saying it's impossible to roleplay without roleplaying guilds. It happens. I RPed without one for quite some time, and I dare say my alt will probably not ever be in one (because of his tendency to kill pretty much anyone he meets. :P)
What Imperon is saying is that roleplaying guilds foster a sense of community that helps to keep roleplay alive. Maybe you're thinking "It's an RP server, RP can't die!" But it can.
I played on Argent Dawn, an RP server, for the better part of two years. Not once in all that time did I ever find RP (except eRP in Goldshire). Anywhere. And I looked! I did! It may exist but it is so deeply hidden in the dark recesses of the world that it can't possibly grow.
This is what we so desperately want to *avoid* on Cenarion Circle. We have a great roleplaying community that seems to be overshadowed by the reputation Wyrmrest Accord has for its RP community. Unnecessarily, I might add! We have some furiously talented people on our server!
Vasilia, I'm going to speak to Gentyl about putting Pia out there a bit more. Maybe you'll see us in trade chat soon as well!
What Imperon is saying is that roleplaying guilds foster a sense of community that helps to keep roleplay alive. Maybe you're thinking "It's an RP server, RP can't die!" But it can.
I played on Argent Dawn, an RP server, for the better part of two years. Not once in all that time did I ever find RP (except eRP in Goldshire). Anywhere. And I looked! I did! It may exist but it is so deeply hidden in the dark recesses of the world that it can't possibly grow.
This is what we so desperately want to *avoid* on Cenarion Circle. We have a great roleplaying community that seems to be overshadowed by the reputation Wyrmrest Accord has for its RP community. Unnecessarily, I might add! We have some furiously talented people on our server!
Vasilia, I'm going to speak to Gentyl about putting Pia out there a bit more. Maybe you'll see us in trade chat soon as well!
Hey Imperon,
Good to read your response and I have some points to reinforce and add to the discussion.
I'll be brief, I'm a bit constrained for time at present. Here goes.
1. Still Stereotyping?
You could use data about a guild to characterise a person, but it's unreliable. You as a roleplayer should be aware of character development. An individual personality is much more detailed than the pluralist nature of organisational objectives and culture.
For example: During my years of WoW; I've found many members of roleplaying guilds are failed English Literature students that hold an inflated opinion of their intellectual ability. I couldn't apply that data liberally to all your guild members, could I?
Certainly, those attention seeking and offensive guild names you referred to are likely to consist of Non-RP'ers. I won't argue that. However these guilds represent only a small faction of the total server population. What of every other non-RP orientated guild name on this server. Are they as easy to stereotype?
That said, not all members of a guild are even involved in the choice of a title. Personally, I know of roleplayers that've joined PvP groups with team names that're anything but RP friendly. Does your theory reflecting guild names extend to team names as well?
Don't become cynical. Always give a person a chance to either prove you right or wrong before condemning them. Your friend from the raiding guild is a good example.
2. Regulation, Regulation, Regulation
I'm all about Free Markets. It's one of the reasons why I love the U.S, though I must admit I'm quite glad I don't have to live there at present!
Back to the point. Encouraging RP'ers to consolidate underneath a formally acknowledged RP title reaks of regulation. I fail to see how a community that survives on creativity can benefit from constraining that talent through fewer channels.
After all, duplication of the same character construct does get boring. Right?
How would that be managed. Only 1 person per guildcan be from an alternate dimension?
Which leads inevitably to micro-management. How far can any given player expand his or her character without encroaching on the territory of a fellow guild member.
3. Cyncism
I'm not part of the RP community, nor do I have any interest. So naturally what I say here is uninformed. So take what I say with a grain of salt.
You've been around almost as long, if not longer, than I have. Perhaps you, or the RP community, has grown tired of the same medium as a form of creative expression after so many years.
Perhaps it's more experienced proponents have tired, and moved on. Maybe those of the newer generations are creating content that's unappealing, or not relevant or inclusive of your agenda.
But consolidating membership under existing RP guilds limits the opportunity for those new members to really create something of their own. Instead, they're more likely to become bit-part actors in the stories of senior members.
4. My Suggestion
Use your guild and or skills to help groom (I love that word, so pedo imo) new talent, and empower them with the skills to create new stories and events that encourage new members into RP.
Personally, I think you'll find this will support what you want.
s m a s h i n g l a s s
Good to read your response and I have some points to reinforce and add to the discussion.
I'll be brief, I'm a bit constrained for time at present. Here goes.
1. Still Stereotyping?
You could use data about a guild to characterise a person, but it's unreliable. You as a roleplayer should be aware of character development. An individual personality is much more detailed than the pluralist nature of organisational objectives and culture.
For example: During my years of WoW; I've found many members of roleplaying guilds are failed English Literature students that hold an inflated opinion of their intellectual ability. I couldn't apply that data liberally to all your guild members, could I?
Certainly, those attention seeking and offensive guild names you referred to are likely to consist of Non-RP'ers. I won't argue that. However these guilds represent only a small faction of the total server population. What of every other non-RP orientated guild name on this server. Are they as easy to stereotype?
That said, not all members of a guild are even involved in the choice of a title. Personally, I know of roleplayers that've joined PvP groups with team names that're anything but RP friendly. Does your theory reflecting guild names extend to team names as well?
Don't become cynical. Always give a person a chance to either prove you right or wrong before condemning them. Your friend from the raiding guild is a good example.
2. Regulation, Regulation, Regulation
I'm all about Free Markets. It's one of the reasons why I love the U.S, though I must admit I'm quite glad I don't have to live there at present!
Back to the point. Encouraging RP'ers to consolidate underneath a formally acknowledged RP title reaks of regulation. I fail to see how a community that survives on creativity can benefit from constraining that talent through fewer channels.
After all, duplication of the same character construct does get boring. Right?
How would that be managed. Only 1 person per guildcan be from an alternate dimension?
Which leads inevitably to micro-management. How far can any given player expand his or her character without encroaching on the territory of a fellow guild member.
3. Cyncism
I'm not part of the RP community, nor do I have any interest. So naturally what I say here is uninformed. So take what I say with a grain of salt.
You've been around almost as long, if not longer, than I have. Perhaps you, or the RP community, has grown tired of the same medium as a form of creative expression after so many years.
Perhaps it's more experienced proponents have tired, and moved on. Maybe those of the newer generations are creating content that's unappealing, or not relevant or inclusive of your agenda.
But consolidating membership under existing RP guilds limits the opportunity for those new members to really create something of their own. Instead, they're more likely to become bit-part actors in the stories of senior members.
4. My Suggestion
Use your guild and or skills to help groom (I love that word, so pedo imo) new talent, and empower them with the skills to create new stories and events that encourage new members into RP.
Personally, I think you'll find this will support what you want.
s m a s h i n g l a s s
Edited by Glass on 4/12/2011 12:19 AM PDT
Uhm, Glass.... still missing the point, me thinks. :P
1) Especially with RP guilds it is perfectly alright to stereotype to some extent. Not being an RPer yourself, I can see why you might not realize this. Imperon is not saying that you know everything there is to know about a character once you've seen what guild they're in. However, most RP guilds look for something in particular in recruiting.
Stormwind City Watch is the guard of Stormwind -- that's what they exclusively RP as. If you see someone in that guild, it is not stereotyping to assume they will enforce the law. That's what they do.
Lluchduu Ocheliad is made up primarily of characters with questionable morals at best. It is not stereotyping to assume you can't fully trust someone in that guild. That's just being smart.
Pia Presidium is made up entirely of honorable do-gooders. It is not stereotyping to assume that we will jump to help your character if you're in some kind of trouble. It's the sworn duty of every Pia Presidium members -- and yes, we all take IC vows to that effect.
As Imp noted, this isn't true of all RP guilds (Feathers of Iron, for instance). But nearly all RP guilds have an RP backstory themselves that allows you to surmise some basic facts about every single character in that guild. It isn't stereotyping if it's true. I think you should just quickly speed-read the sticky thread "RP Guilds/Events" as it will give you a good idea what I'm talking about.
2) This one, I think, comes completely out of the blue. Imperon never said people couldn't have similar characters. But, the neat thing about roleplayers? If two of us have virtually the same character -- backstory, class, even in the same guild -- guaranteed we'll play our characters differently enough that it won't encroach on each other at all. Guaranteed. So, no, there's no need to "micro-manage" as far as that's concerned. Occasionally someone will toss an RP idea out and ask "Is that too overdone?" and the answer is usually "So? That's never stopped us before." :P
As for limiting the number of channels people can RP in? Encouraging people to be in RP guilds doesn't do this, because inevitably someone is going to create a character who doesn't quite fit in with the guilds we have. And they'll make a new one. There's so many character ideas that we don't have represented in our RP community, just off the top of my head I can come up with three RP guild concepts that we don't have. And I haven't even had my morning coffee. And, as has been said, not all RPers HAVE to be in RP guilds. It simply fosters more of an RP community and makes it easier for beginner RPers to learn how.
1) Especially with RP guilds it is perfectly alright to stereotype to some extent. Not being an RPer yourself, I can see why you might not realize this. Imperon is not saying that you know everything there is to know about a character once you've seen what guild they're in. However, most RP guilds look for something in particular in recruiting.
Stormwind City Watch is the guard of Stormwind -- that's what they exclusively RP as. If you see someone in that guild, it is not stereotyping to assume they will enforce the law. That's what they do.
Lluchduu Ocheliad is made up primarily of characters with questionable morals at best. It is not stereotyping to assume you can't fully trust someone in that guild. That's just being smart.
Pia Presidium is made up entirely of honorable do-gooders. It is not stereotyping to assume that we will jump to help your character if you're in some kind of trouble. It's the sworn duty of every Pia Presidium members -- and yes, we all take IC vows to that effect.
As Imp noted, this isn't true of all RP guilds (Feathers of Iron, for instance). But nearly all RP guilds have an RP backstory themselves that allows you to surmise some basic facts about every single character in that guild. It isn't stereotyping if it's true. I think you should just quickly speed-read the sticky thread "RP Guilds/Events" as it will give you a good idea what I'm talking about.
2) This one, I think, comes completely out of the blue. Imperon never said people couldn't have similar characters. But, the neat thing about roleplayers? If two of us have virtually the same character -- backstory, class, even in the same guild -- guaranteed we'll play our characters differently enough that it won't encroach on each other at all. Guaranteed. So, no, there's no need to "micro-manage" as far as that's concerned. Occasionally someone will toss an RP idea out and ask "Is that too overdone?" and the answer is usually "So? That's never stopped us before." :P
As for limiting the number of channels people can RP in? Encouraging people to be in RP guilds doesn't do this, because inevitably someone is going to create a character who doesn't quite fit in with the guilds we have. And they'll make a new one. There's so many character ideas that we don't have represented in our RP community, just off the top of my head I can come up with three RP guild concepts that we don't have. And I haven't even had my morning coffee. And, as has been said, not all RPers HAVE to be in RP guilds. It simply fosters more of an RP community and makes it easier for beginner RPers to learn how.
*throws in two cents*
I had something witty to say but I lost it.
I had something witty to say but I lost it.
@ Crayauchtin
1) How does a brand that defines the expected behavioural characteristics of all members inspire creativity? I find that counterintuititive.
Stereotyping might be appropriate for some scenario's and character types. I doubt widespread predictive understanding for an entire playerbase supports a creative environment. Simple examples:
<Bad Guys> Yeah, that character must be bad.
Consolidate every bad character into one or two such guilds.
2) Regulation geared towards consolidation tends to benefit those that hold a pre-existing advantageous position. This will place greater importance on older server members.
Whilst I'm sure Gentyl and Imperon are capable hands, it doesn't inspire anything dramatically 'new'. (However I'll accept it's hard to create something new when so many have past through the game over the past 6 odd years).
3) It was a short reply, I'm distracted. Things to do, little time to do them.
s m a s h i n g l a s s
1) How does a brand that defines the expected behavioural characteristics of all members inspire creativity? I find that counterintuititive.
Stereotyping might be appropriate for some scenario's and character types. I doubt widespread predictive understanding for an entire playerbase supports a creative environment. Simple examples:
<Bad Guys> Yeah, that character must be bad.
Consolidate every bad character into one or two such guilds.
2) Regulation geared towards consolidation tends to benefit those that hold a pre-existing advantageous position. This will place greater importance on older server members.
Whilst I'm sure Gentyl and Imperon are capable hands, it doesn't inspire anything dramatically 'new'. (However I'll accept it's hard to create something new when so many have past through the game over the past 6 odd years).
3) It was a short reply, I'm distracted. Things to do, little time to do them.
s m a s h i n g l a s s
Edited by Glass on 4/12/2011 8:02 AM PDT
Glass, we all know you're not a role player, but Cray's explanation was pretty spot on. Role playing guilds do not, and cannot limited creativity because people *choose* to join a specific guild. If no guild exists that addresses their personal theme in RP, they can (and do) choose to create a new guild. Not more than two weeks ago I saw a new RP guild being created that's specifically for night elves. I don't think we've had race-specific RP guilds on CC since the days of the Bael Modan Regiment and Gnome Depot.
Did you actually read, really read, my original essay? Creating new RP guilds (I think I used the phrase "more numerous and more active RP guilds" or something along those lines) is part of what I've been talking about.
If the role player I mentioned who tends to be in raid guilds went back and resurrected his old RP guild, hey, another RP guild. I'm not even really sure how you're connecting the idea that you know something about people based on their guild with a lack of creativity. It doesn't connect.
In order for a guild to be well known, things have to be known about it. The word "known" rather implies that you have at least have a short bullet point list about the guild in your mind. I understand it's not politically correct in the US to even suggest that groups larger than one can have common, understandable characteristics unless those common, understandable characteristics entitle them to special treatment of some sort but knock it off already.
<Bad Guys> I actually would know something about this guild. The name would be the creation of someone trying to look cute, be ironic, or mock people who make names in an effort to sound like bad guys. This name would be in the same vein as <Ominous Latin Noun>. It wouldn't be a guild of role players because <Bad Guys> isn't a theme that would be workable for an RP guild. Pirates, Scarlet Crusaders, a robber baron's private army, an offshoot of the Defias, smugglers, sell swords, anarchists/doomsday cultists...these are the sorts of themes you find in villain guilds. No, it's not an exhaustive list. Our server has had some of these themes in guilds, and others I've seen in various other MMO's.
None of them suggest a lack of creativity on any level.
The Lluchduu Ocheliad has a theme. It is a framework, not a limitation. Within our theme we have people ranging from those who simply don't particularly care about any laws outside those of the Ocheliad to people who actively enjoy breaking laws, to those who are simply too warped to consider laws to people who just like having an excuse to break stuff. We have people who are simply loyal to Imperon, or people for whom the Ocheliad is a family. We do have good, noble souls in the LO. They're rare (as you might expect) but they're there.
Finally, stop it with this "consolidation" nonsense. RP guilds do need to recruit more, the RP community will be stronger when more role players are in role playing guilds. None of this suggests a lack of new RP guilds, none of it limits creativity.
Oh, while I'm thinking about it, a little note to the members of Reprise who've been keeping up with the conversation: You've proven me wrong about raiders not reading this essay. It's likely one of the few times I've been quite thrilled to be proven wrong.
Did you actually read, really read, my original essay? Creating new RP guilds (I think I used the phrase "more numerous and more active RP guilds" or something along those lines) is part of what I've been talking about.
If the role player I mentioned who tends to be in raid guilds went back and resurrected his old RP guild, hey, another RP guild. I'm not even really sure how you're connecting the idea that you know something about people based on their guild with a lack of creativity. It doesn't connect.
In order for a guild to be well known, things have to be known about it. The word "known" rather implies that you have at least have a short bullet point list about the guild in your mind. I understand it's not politically correct in the US to even suggest that groups larger than one can have common, understandable characteristics unless those common, understandable characteristics entitle them to special treatment of some sort but knock it off already.
<Bad Guys> I actually would know something about this guild. The name would be the creation of someone trying to look cute, be ironic, or mock people who make names in an effort to sound like bad guys. This name would be in the same vein as <Ominous Latin Noun>. It wouldn't be a guild of role players because <Bad Guys> isn't a theme that would be workable for an RP guild. Pirates, Scarlet Crusaders, a robber baron's private army, an offshoot of the Defias, smugglers, sell swords, anarchists/doomsday cultists...these are the sorts of themes you find in villain guilds. No, it's not an exhaustive list. Our server has had some of these themes in guilds, and others I've seen in various other MMO's.
None of them suggest a lack of creativity on any level.
The Lluchduu Ocheliad has a theme. It is a framework, not a limitation. Within our theme we have people ranging from those who simply don't particularly care about any laws outside those of the Ocheliad to people who actively enjoy breaking laws, to those who are simply too warped to consider laws to people who just like having an excuse to break stuff. We have people who are simply loyal to Imperon, or people for whom the Ocheliad is a family. We do have good, noble souls in the LO. They're rare (as you might expect) but they're there.
Finally, stop it with this "consolidation" nonsense. RP guilds do need to recruit more, the RP community will be stronger when more role players are in role playing guilds. None of this suggests a lack of new RP guilds, none of it limits creativity.
Oh, while I'm thinking about it, a little note to the members of Reprise who've been keeping up with the conversation: You've proven me wrong about raiders not reading this essay. It's likely one of the few times I've been quite thrilled to be proven wrong.
Here to derail the current conversation!
A while back when I was looking for a home for Calsy, I had E whisper me "the macro". I expanded my chat window so I could see the entire list clearly. I thought, "maybe I should take a screenshot of this. In case I could not make up my mind..."
Most likely missing a few, as it is from February 19th, but Vasilia, I need to find you later! I'll transcribe it and send it to you.
A while back when I was looking for a home for Calsy, I had E whisper me "the macro". I expanded my chat window so I could see the entire list clearly. I thought, "maybe I should take a screenshot of this. In case I could not make up my mind..."
Most likely missing a few, as it is from February 19th, but Vasilia, I need to find you later! I'll transcribe it and send it to you.
04/12/2011 12:18 AMPosted by GlassBut consolidating membership under existing RP guilds limits the opportunity for those new members to really create something of their own. Instead, they're more likely to become bit-part actors in the stories of senior members.
While I am not sure I see eye to eye with you on many issues, I definitely see a valid point in this. Guilds of many stripe seem to have some people that are louder voices than others, and tend to use numbers and warm bodies in their organization to the benefit of them more so than those they use. Raiding guilds are full of them, these are usually the folks you see sitting outside the banks day in and out on their fancy mounts. The RP equivalent can be different, in that it may not be so blatantly exhibitionist, but is still there in terms of the situation you describe.
04/12/2011 09:58 AMPosted by ImperonThe Lluchduu Ocheliad has a theme. It is a framework, not a limitation.
YES! We just need to keep this in mind and we can have our great guilds, and yet still help facilitate rp in general for the rest of the server. In theory, there is nothing wrong with our guilds and the way we have things organized. In practice, we just need to make sure we stick to our guns in this respect, otherwise we risk elitism, alienation of new roleplayers, and stagnation in our creative vision.
Imperon, you forgot to mention that LO contains people who're perfectly willing to impale Paladins on their spears. Not that I'm still bitter or naming names. *coughsathrasacough* :P
Glass, as someone who doesn't RP, you're probably thinking of this like the process is as follows:
1) Roll a toon
2) Join a guild
3) Create a character, backstory, etc
4) Flesh out character via RP
Yes, that would limit creativity and so that's seldom how it works. On the rare occasion that that *is* how it works, it's likely that the RPer will have joined a more generic guild like the aforementioned Feathers of Iron.
That is not, however, how things generally work. Typically it's more like this:
1) Roll a toon
2) Create a character, backstory, etc
3) Join a guild while fleshing out character via RP
4) Continue fleshing out character
In the course of a character's journey -- for any roleplayer will tell you that every character is a journey in and of itself -- your character may no longer fit in with the themes of the guild you initially joined (or didn't join). It's perfectly easy, and does happen, that a character may roleplay out of the guild and into another.
Just a hypothetical here, but due to recent events it has come up, that a messenger from AAMS (Anytime Anywhere Messenger Service, which has guilds on both Horde and Alliance to allow for communication between factions) might be fired from the guild if they participated in any RP PvP (as the guild is neutral in-character).
Now let's say that in this example, the character is an Alliance warrior who fought against the Horde because, oh I don't know, an Orc recently killed his or her mother/brother/sister/pet frog. If this warrior was then fired from the AAMS, they might then -- with their new motivations -- choose to join Pillar of Honor, which is more than willing to fight the Horde at every opportunity.
The presence of roleplaying guilds has not only not limited that player's creativity, but actually helped to create a sense of change in the character's life, as well as forge relationships (as it's likely AAMS characters would not react well to someone who broke their neutrality rules, and most people don't like people who fire them from their jobs), and even allowed them to create an interesting story arc for their character and both guilds.
Now, let's take that same Alliance warrior and not put them in any guild. Let's say that once again, Orcs have killed their pet frog. (Some people get very attached to frogs, okay? :P) As a result, this warrior engages in battle against the Horde and..... then what?
There's no consequences.
There's basically no change in the character.
There's basically no change in the character's relationships.
....so, yeah, that was creative and fun? Really?
That's just one example of a scenario where being in a guild can actually enhance your creativity.
Now, as for older server members being more important... I know in some RP communities this is true (mostly because it's assumed that more experience = more talent, but you know what they say happens when you assume!). Not in Cenarion Circle. When I first started RPing on this server, I was embraced by all (not literally, because if I was I would run screaming from Ardam :P) and have since been seriously involved in many plotlines. In truth, I've only been on Cenarion Circle about... what, maybe six months?
Then, take for instance, McFlinty. He joined the server after me, but he pretty quickly became well known and is a very busy textiles merchant at most major RP events! He's newer than me but it doesn't matter. At least where Cenarion Circle is concerned, we're a true community. The RP guilds help foster that community.
Glass, as someone who doesn't RP, you're probably thinking of this like the process is as follows:
1) Roll a toon
2) Join a guild
3) Create a character, backstory, etc
4) Flesh out character via RP
Yes, that would limit creativity and so that's seldom how it works. On the rare occasion that that *is* how it works, it's likely that the RPer will have joined a more generic guild like the aforementioned Feathers of Iron.
That is not, however, how things generally work. Typically it's more like this:
1) Roll a toon
2) Create a character, backstory, etc
3) Join a guild while fleshing out character via RP
4) Continue fleshing out character
In the course of a character's journey -- for any roleplayer will tell you that every character is a journey in and of itself -- your character may no longer fit in with the themes of the guild you initially joined (or didn't join). It's perfectly easy, and does happen, that a character may roleplay out of the guild and into another.
Just a hypothetical here, but due to recent events it has come up, that a messenger from AAMS (Anytime Anywhere Messenger Service, which has guilds on both Horde and Alliance to allow for communication between factions) might be fired from the guild if they participated in any RP PvP (as the guild is neutral in-character).
Now let's say that in this example, the character is an Alliance warrior who fought against the Horde because, oh I don't know, an Orc recently killed his or her mother/brother/sister/pet frog. If this warrior was then fired from the AAMS, they might then -- with their new motivations -- choose to join Pillar of Honor, which is more than willing to fight the Horde at every opportunity.
The presence of roleplaying guilds has not only not limited that player's creativity, but actually helped to create a sense of change in the character's life, as well as forge relationships (as it's likely AAMS characters would not react well to someone who broke their neutrality rules, and most people don't like people who fire them from their jobs), and even allowed them to create an interesting story arc for their character and both guilds.
Now, let's take that same Alliance warrior and not put them in any guild. Let's say that once again, Orcs have killed their pet frog. (Some people get very attached to frogs, okay? :P) As a result, this warrior engages in battle against the Horde and..... then what?
There's no consequences.
There's basically no change in the character.
There's basically no change in the character's relationships.
....so, yeah, that was creative and fun? Really?
That's just one example of a scenario where being in a guild can actually enhance your creativity.
Now, as for older server members being more important... I know in some RP communities this is true (mostly because it's assumed that more experience = more talent, but you know what they say happens when you assume!). Not in Cenarion Circle. When I first started RPing on this server, I was embraced by all (not literally, because if I was I would run screaming from Ardam :P) and have since been seriously involved in many plotlines. In truth, I've only been on Cenarion Circle about... what, maybe six months?
Then, take for instance, McFlinty. He joined the server after me, but he pretty quickly became well known and is a very busy textiles merchant at most major RP events! He's newer than me but it doesn't matter. At least where Cenarion Circle is concerned, we're a true community. The RP guilds help foster that community.
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