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I will say one thing, if anyone seriously thinks Sylvanas would ever join the Legion, then you do not know your lore. At. All.

03/19/2012 03:21 PMPosted by Eslyn

Stop taking things personal.

Sorry if I misjudged you. I do think that the point of "correlation is not causation" still stands, but I do see what you mean.

Also, the newspaper is all the rage on the Horde-side--and I do mean rage. *teehee* Give us a read if you find time. New issue coming out in about an hour.

As I was once told about the business in Camp Taurajo: Evil is as evil does.

Think about it.

I see no way, whatsoever, that that applies to Taurajo.

Then I wish you'd talk to the folks from my previous servers, because the general consensus was that the destruction of the camp forfeited the Alliance races' collective right to exist.

Man, those were bad communities.

I see no way, whatsoever, that that applies to Taurajo.

Then I wish you'd talk to the folks from my previous servers, because the general consensus was that the destruction of the camp forfeited the Alliance races' collective right to exist.

Man, those were bad communities.

It.. honestly sounds like it.

I mean, sure, it was a horrid thing, but uh.. both sides are pretty equally horrible at times, heh.

03/19/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Rowanne

I will say one thing, if anyone seriously thinks Sylvanas would ever join the Legion, then you do not know your lore. At. All.

You Sylvie-defenders just like how she shows her belly button. Admit it, you find her dead sexy. :p

...Yes, that's a joke.

I...what? I'm not a Sylvanas defender. I just...know the lore behind her?

Oh ho ho. 'Dead' sexy.

I get it.

Though, Silver - you might do Silverpine, some time. It really offers a good perspective on Sylvanas, and who she is, and why she does what she does.

Rowanne's a Sylvanas apologist! Ragefang is putting a hit out on her! You heard it here first! ;)

In all seriousness, folks, let's play nice. Lots of cool stuff coming up in the new expansion, some of which has story elements we can use now. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't looking forward to the possibility (not the guarantee) that the people Alliance-side who are upset with Ragefang for what they see as "warmongering" against Garrosh and the Horde might say towards the end of MoP, "Wow, pants thief, you were right... who'da thunk it?!"

Even without that, it's awesome that we have more and more people participating in the weekly RP-PvP events. I want to do it 'cause PvP can be fun, and I want to do it in the hopes that it draws the Cenarion Circle community of RPers, Horde and Alliance both, together more, and because I think it presents a great broad framework for larger-scale stories being told in our respective factions. I mean, think about a crew of Horde who decide that while they support Garrosh, they don't support Sylvanas, and they want to go after Modas il Toralar because that group is on the Sylvanas-friendly side! They can't fight directly with the Toralites, because outside of the free-for-all locations like Gurubashi Arena and the cage at the Darkmoon Faire, it isn't done, so they instead start passing information to key Alliance players about times and places the Modas are going to gather.

Imagine someone deciding Ragefang is little better than the worst accusations levied against King Wrynn, figuring he's nothing more than a warmonger (and an undead one at that; how can that stupid worgen have such a mad-on for Sylvanas when he's just like her?!), so they start passing information about his known locations so that he can be teamed up-on by enterprising Hordies?

Imagine someone deciding that King Wrynn is a warmonger in reality, and they start passing anti-Wrynn propaganda throughout Stormwind via regularly-timed /yells?

There are lots of storytelling opportunities brewing that will work well within the framework of our weekly RP-PvP occurrences, and the upcoming stories in Mists of Pandaria will work really nicely with those, which has me excited. :D

Hah, yes, it has certainly caused quite a bit of rp to start up, that is for sure, and that is always nice :D

Ra's even made some new friends! And amusingly is more interested in peace now than he was before the attacks >> S'kind of funny, really.

03/19/2012 05:30 PMPosted by Ragefang

and they want to go after Modas il Toralar because that group is on the Sylvanas-friendly side!

((Well, some Modas like her but Varimathras was our patron for years...had to destroy a lot of paper work after his little coup.))

03/19/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Rowanne

I...what? I'm not a Sylvanas defender. I just...know the lore behind her?

Sylvanas is looking out for her people, this is true. But she's doing it in ways that the still-living (or at least not visibly rotting) races find morally reprehensible. Even the orcs, and they've done some screwed-up crap in their blood-soaked history. She is perfectly capable - aye, willing, even - to make deals with the devil if it gains more power for herself and for the Forsaken as a whole.

As for the "let's not meta-game" part, there is one fairly glaring issue to bring up - and that's the bluntly-stated hatred that some major leaders, on both sides, have for Garrosh. Varian's distaste for orcs in general clouds his judgment, the night elves likely blame him for the deforestation of Ashenvale, and the Gilnean refugees know that Garrosh backed Sylvanas' invasion of Gilneas. They see Sylvanas as a plague-spreading lunatic, and unless the little bit with one of Hellscream's generals in the Cathedral was made common knowledge, they'd think that Garrosh sanctioned the use of the plague. And as for the Horde...I mentioned Vol'jin, the one who has it out for Garrosh - if given the opportunity, Vol'jin will kill Garrosh. Anyone who's had any interaction with a Darkspear who makes no secret of their allegiance and their loyalty to Vol'jin will know this. Same with the tauren - they know Garrosh was the one who killed Cairne Bloodhoof, but I think only Baine and a handful of Garrosh's advisors know that Magatha poisoned Gorehowl's blade.

Screaming "DEATHWING IS RETURNING!" during the leadup to Cataclysm, yeah, clear godmoding BS - but the leadup to Garrosh's demise, I personally feel that it should not be surprising. I am sure people suspected (ICly), before the formal announcement was made that he would indeed do so, that Garrosh would possibly succeed Thrall at some point. And when he ascended to the post, I am sure that there were more than a few (again, ICly) who looked at him, looked at his tactics (or rather, lack thereof) and said, "He can't last."

Anyone with an eye on the politics of the day (or who's fought in the war that is about to return to center stage, on either side) would look at Garrosh's rapidly-increasing preference for mindless slaughter with little to no tactics or strategy, and see that his position was untenable. His downfall would not be a case of if - it would be only a matter of when, how, and who. Look at his conduct in Northrend - from the start in Warsong Hold, he was essentially a "kill 'em all" mentality, finding the important duties of a military leader (troop movements, supply lines, so on) boring compared to taking battle to the enemy. His leadership of the Horde is beginning to reflect that mindset more and more.

I didn't read every wall of text in this thread. Not because I don't find them interesting, but because I have pretty bad eyesight and I get migranes if I read too much small type.

anywho...

The one thing that did catch my eye (haha) was that some were saying that Thrall wouldn't come back. And that Vol'Jin and Bane would be the leaders against the Siege of Ogrimmar.

But, if it turns out that the Alliance and Horde work together in this siege, it makes perfect sense that Thrall is the head of it.

Think about it.

He turned the mantle of War Chief over to Garrosh.
Later he regretted that desission (As seen durring the quest line to get Thrall back from the elements).
The Whole of Azeroth owes Thrall a Great dept.
Thrall seeing now that Garrosh is leading the Horde down a darker path, and to civil unrest, decides to retake his Mantle.

Garrosh would not willingly step down. He may see Thralls great power, but he also sees him as not war-like enough. Basicly he sees him as a "tree hugger".
He would lock down Ogrimmar and prepare for war to defend what HE sees as the New Horde.

Thrall would have to fight to get the Mantle of War Chief back.
In Garroshes eyes, That would be the only proof to him, that Thrall really deserves the Title and Mantle of "War Chief"...Just my (badly written and spelled) point of view.

I didn't read every wall of text in this thread. Not because I don't find them interesting, but because I have pretty bad eyesight and I get migranes if I read too much small type.

Ctrl+mousewheel to get bigger text. :)

I don't think this should come as a surprise. As others have said, it's been shown how much the other leaders disapprove of Garrosh--even Sylvanas in her own way, by disobeying his orders and deploying the plague in Gilneas. Vol'jin even states directly in the new troll starter area that he won't take orders from Garrosh, but on a spirit-talk with Thrall, prudently decides to wait and see before he takes aggressive action against the Warchief.

So, maybe the date of the coup and exactly how Garrosh gets overthrown can't be predicted, but I think most characters with an ounce of intuition could tell Garrosh is digging himself into a big nasty pit of mutiny. I've seen those predictions RPed out well before Blizz's announcement on this.

the only thing i am really perturbed about is losing hgwt. i could live without the pandas, but hgwt irks me.

((I'm looking forward to the rp that will stem from the Seige of Orgrimmar. Whatever Garrosh winds up doing, it's gotta be BAD for the Horde to turn on him.

Or who knows? Maybe the Horde get a different version of said raid, as defenders?))

(( Well, they've said that we work together to take Garrosh down, so I doubt it.

That said, they say he becomes /corrupted/.

Which is required, really. As of now we have no more reason to kill Garrosh than the Alliance has to kill Varian. He's warmongering and brutish - so is the King. But he's also honorable, and done well by his people, so far.

I'm willing to bet it's the Sha, or Blizzard's usual 'corrupters', the Burning Legion or the Old Gods.

Though given Garrosh's hatred of the Legion, him being corrupted by them would almost be as dumb as Sylvanas making a deal with the Burning Legion. Almost. ))

Some things to consider:

Garrosh is following a parallel path to the original Horde. Yes, it's not demonic influences, but one of the reasons the orcs began using warlock magic is because the elements stopped responding to them. Garrosh has begun relying on goblin technology and disregarding the orcs' shamanistic heritage again. He's waging total war on another group of people, and he would be perfectly willing to exterminate them all, like the original Horde. He doesn't need to be corrupted, per se, he's traveling the path on his own.

Sylvanas is establishing her own kingdom for her people. She's using less than moral methods to do so, but she's thinking about her people.

Some things to consider:

Garrosh is following a parallel path to the original Horde. Yes, it's not demonic influences, but one of the reasons the orcs began using warlock magic is because the elements stopped responding to them. Garrosh has begun relying on goblin technology and disregarding the orcs' shamanistic heritage again. He's waging total war on another group of people, and he would be perfectly willing to exterminate them all, like the original Horde. He doesn't need to be corrupted, per se, he's traveling the path on his own.

Sylvanas is establishing her own kingdom for her people. She's using less than moral methods to do so, but she's thinking about her people.

Yes and no.

He's more warlike than Thrall, yes. However, I wouldn't say he's quite like the old Horde. The Old Horde wanted.. death of everything.

Garrosh's offensives generally have some thought to them, at least. Gilneas he ordered so that the Horde'd have a port in Northern Eastern Kingdoms, Ashenvale because his people need lumber, Stonetalon for supplies as well - but he's not just spreading death and destruction like the old Horde. He IS doing well by his people, unlike the old Horde, which made them into slaves.

Goblin engineering is.. nowhere near the level of evil the Burning Legion is.

Garrosh hates demons. He threatens to execute his men for even getting help from a demon in Ashenvale, even if it helped them repel Night elf forces. If anything it is something new we are going to encounter from the Mists that get to him, the sha as Arothand put it maybe.

If you ever played Wc3 you would know Sylvanas would never join with a dread lord, unless she had full control over him. She is like all the leaders, trying to make a living for her people.
If the humans would just leave the Forsaken alone, alot of trouble going on in Western Plague lands would be over.

(( Well, they've said that we work together to take Garrosh down, so I doubt it.

That said, they say he becomes /corrupted/.

Which is required, really. As of now we have no more reason to kill Garrosh than the Alliance has to kill Varian. He's warmongering and brutish - so is the King. But he's also honorable, and done well by his people, so far.

I'm willing to bet it's the Sha, or Blizzard's usual 'corrupters', the Burning Legion or the Old Gods.

Though given Garrosh's hatred of the Legion, him being corrupted by them would almost be as dumb as Sylvanas making a deal with the Burning Legion. Almost. ))

((In the interview, it was never actually *said* they work together. Joystiq just had that impression. Also, the invasion is led by Varian, so I think it's a stretch, even for Warcraft, that Horde forces would follow an Alliance King. They would wanna deal with their own dirty laundry.

And as far as warmongering, Garrosh is actually much worse than Varian, who has every reason to be as aggressive as Garrosh, but hasn't been. Other than some land in the Barrens, which we're gonna lose, Garrosh has been playing offense, Varian defense.))