World of Warcraft®

((In the interview, it was never actually *said* they work together. Joystiq just had that impression. Also, the invasion is led by Varian, so I think it's a stretch, even for Warcraft, that Horde forces would follow an Alliance King. They would wanna deal with their own dirty laundry.

And as far as warmongering, Garrosh is actually much worse than Varian, who has every reason to be as aggressive as Garrosh, but hasn't been. Other than some land in the Barrens, which we're gonna lose, Garrosh has been playing offense, Varian defense.))

(( Western Plaguelands, Swamp of Sorrows, the Barrens.

Just because they haven't been particularly /winning/ doesn't mean they've been playing defensively.

That said, the whole corrupted bit, if the Horde /doesn't/ turn against him is pretty ridiculous. This isn't the old Horde, the Horde isn't ~eeeeviiilll~, nor villains. If Garrosh turns evil, we should likely be there to kill him too. ))

Some things to consider:

Garrosh is following a parallel path to the original Horde. Yes, it's not demonic influences, but one of the reasons the orcs began using warlock magic is because the elements stopped responding to them. Garrosh has begun relying on goblin technology and disregarding the orcs' shamanistic heritage again. He's waging total war on another group of people, and he would be perfectly willing to exterminate them all, like the original Horde. He doesn't need to be corrupted, per se, he's traveling the path on his own.

Sylvanas is establishing her own kingdom for her people. She's using less than moral methods to do so, but she's thinking about her people.

Yes and no.

He's more warlike than Thrall, yes. However, I wouldn't say he's quite like the old Horde. The Old Horde wanted.. death of everything.

Garrosh's offensives generally have some thought to them, at least. Gilneas he ordered so that the Horde'd have a port in Northern Eastern Kingdoms, Ashenvale because his people need lumber, Stonetalon for supplies as well - but he's not just spreading death and destruction like the old Horde. He IS doing well by his people, unlike the old Horde, which made them into slaves.

Goblin engineering is.. nowhere near the level of evil the Burning Legion is.

I think the keyword to apply here would be yet. To the people of the Old Horde, most of them viewed Gul'dan and Blackhand as doing right by their people. Goblin engineering doesn't care what allegiance it's master has, it will do whatever it's intended to, like obliterate a village of student druids.

Goblin engineering doesn't care what allegiance it's master has, it will do whatever it's intended to, like obliterate a village of student druids.

As would gnome technology (look what happened to their own city); technology is a tool to be used and doesn't have an inherit morality.

Thoughts of the moment:

-I have no idea who would replace Garrosh; not sure I even want to take guesses at it.
-So...so tired of "corruption" in the sense usually seen in WoW; perhaps it will be a moral failing all his own or possibly his rage will be manipulated in a more indirect sense in the same way as Blackhand was a tool of Guldan and the Shadow Council? Of course, anyone with demonic ties would have to be a lot more subtle due to his hatred of demons.
-I would prefer the Horde (and only the Horde) to remove Garrosh; for the Horde and Alliance to team up on this suggests a very weak Horde that will only exist because the Alliance "allows" it. It makes the factions seem rather uneven in ability.
-I've always viewed the Horde and Alliance as rather equivalent in their triumphs and atrocities; even the Forsaken quests have always had a sort of tragic beauty to it and brings out a lot of sympathy, especially in the reversal of usual roles when you add in their conflict with the Scarlet Crusade. Okay, slightly starting to ramble now but I've always been so confused by the black and white moral absolutism I've sometimes seen though I am glad to see the majority of people here not fall into that trap.
-Really cannot say much more on this upcoming war until we get more information; I hope there is good story telling to it and the Modas will certainly find this conflict immensely profitable.

Few bits.

1) Are we really going to have a technology is bad argument in here? I certainly bloody well hope not.

2) The encounter isn't done yet, so we could work together, or we might not. Blizzard hasn't designed it yet to be clear.

3) As it stands, right now, Varian is pretty much as bad as Garrosh. Metzen said bliz flat out designed him to be an imperfect gritty !@#$%^-. He gets better in MoP, whilst Garrosh gets worse.

4) Metzen also heavily hinted that Garrosh will be the one to get ahold of the power that The Alliance and Horde are fighting over in Pandaria. Presumably, he'll either go mad with power and his own ambitions, or he'll be possessed by the Sha. Honestly I think its the former, but who knows.

((In the interview, it was never actually *said* they work together. Joystiq just had that impression. Also, the invasion is led by Varian, so I think it's a stretch, even for Warcraft, that Horde forces would follow an Alliance King. They would wanna deal with their own dirty laundry.

And as far as warmongering, Garrosh is actually much worse than Varian, who has every reason to be as aggressive as Garrosh, but hasn't been. Other than some land in the Barrens, which we're gonna lose, Garrosh has been playing offense, Varian defense.))

(( Western Plaguelands, Swamp of Sorrows, the Barrens.

Just because they haven't been particularly /winning/ doesn't mean they've been playing defensively.

That said, the whole corrupted bit, if the Horde /doesn't/ turn against him is pretty ridiculous. This isn't the old Horde, the Horde isn't ~eeeeviiilll~, nor villains. If Garrosh turns evil, we should likely be there to kill him too. ))

((The only issue I've had through all this is that yet again, the Alliance is portrayed as being too inept to do anything on their own. We just spent Cataclysm getting no lore development, unable to even take back a city from green midgets, and helping the one orc leader we've been consistently we've been fighting for years.

It's.... well, it doesn't really inspire any faction pride.))

Few bits.

1) Are we really going to have a technology is bad argument in here? I certainly bloody well hope not.

2) The encounter isn't done yet, so we could work together, or we might not. Blizzard hasn't designed it yet to be clear.

3) As it stands, right now, Varian is pretty much as bad as Garrosh. Metzen said bliz flat out designed him to be an imperfect gritty !@#$%^-. He gets better in MoP, whilst Garrosh gets worse.

4) Metzen also heavily hinted that Garrosh will be the one to get ahold of the power that The Alliance and Horde are fighting over in Pandaria. Presumably, he'll either go mad with power and his own ambitions, or he'll be possessed by the Sha. Honestly I think its the former, but who knows.

Thanks! That gives me more to work with mentally;P And yes, agree on number 3 completely.

((To be honest, it was bloody well the Horde's turn to be able to have some faction pride. A lot of the past bits were heavily Alliance centered. However, you shouldn't have to worry - give this a read.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/03/19/mists-of-pandaria-chris-metzen-interview/

To quote part of it "But I definitely think we're coming with some Alliance love. They'll be proud to be Alliance by the end of this thing."

((To be honest, it was bloody well the Horde's turn to be able to have some faction pride. A lot of the past bits were heavily Alliance centered. However, you shouldn't have to worry - give this a read.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/03/19/mists-of-pandaria-chris-metzen-interview/

To quote part of it "But I definitely think we're coming with some Alliance love. They'll be proud to be Alliance by the end of this thing."

(( Nothing, and I do mean nothing, warranted the Alliance being sacrificed so entirely for Horde development. I played Horde right up until Wrath (bad time to hop ship, I know), and while things didn't always go the Horde's way, at least the Horde was going any direction at all.

Cataclysm was made for the Horde. The Alliance was a plot device for them at best. Seems the trend will continue when Metzen uses us to get you your god-shaman back as Warchief. Then back to peace talks. Yay. ))

((The only issue I've had through all this is that yet again, the Alliance is portrayed as being too inept to do anything on their own. We just spent Cataclysm getting no lore development, unable to even take back a city from green midgets, and helping the one orc leader we've been consistently we've been fighting for years.

It's.... well, it doesn't really inspire any faction pride.))

Not sure how we can say "yet again" on this; I will admit, they were of less importance in Cata (then again, keep in mind, Blizz released WoW before the Horde cities were even finished; they required the most work to even things out). Also think of how Horde players felt in Wrath of the Lich King (though, awesome expansion but it made us feel like...side-kicks to Alliance/human/paladin centric things). Besides, people have completely unfounded pride to a fanatically nationalistic level! I see people take pride in many things totally undeserved!:P /tongue in cheek

Few bits.

1) Are we really going to have a technology is bad argument in here? I certainly bloody well hope not.

2) The encounter isn't done yet, so we could work together, or we might not. Blizzard hasn't designed it yet to be clear.

3) As it stands, right now, Varian is pretty much as bad as Garrosh. Metzen said bliz flat out designed him to be an imperfect gritty !@#$%^-. He gets better in MoP, whilst Garrosh gets worse.

4) Metzen also heavily hinted that Garrosh will be the one to get ahold of the power that The Alliance and Horde are fighting over in Pandaria. Presumably, he'll either go mad with power and his own ambitions, or he'll be possessed by the Sha. Honestly I think its the former, but who knows.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that technology was bad, just that Garrosh relying on technology because technology doesn't object to what he's doing is similar to how the Old Horde started using fel-magic because fel-magic didn't object to what they were doing. It's been shown in the various books and stories that Garrosh and his commanders tend to ignore shaman concerns over their own agenda.

((The only issue I've had through all this is that yet again, the Alliance is portrayed as being too inept to do anything on their own. We just spent Cataclysm getting no lore development, unable to even take back a city from green midgets, and helping the one orc leader we've been consistently we've been fighting for years.

It's.... well, it doesn't really inspire any faction pride.))

Not sure how we can say "yet again" on this; I will admit, they were of less importance in Cata (then again, keep in mind, Blizz released WoW before the Horde cities were even finished; they required the most work to even things out). Also think of how Horde players felt in Wrath of the Lich King (though, awesome expansion but it made us feel like...side-kicks to Alliance/human/paladin centric things). Besides, people have completely unfounded pride to a fanatically nationalistic level! I see people take pride in many things totally undeserved!:P /tongue in cheek

(( In Wrath, the "Lich King" was Ner'zhul and Arthas.

Tirion, a neutral (and I mean neutral. Not Thrall's "I'm on vacation from leading the Horde" version) character, dealt the final blow. This was of course after getting to see Saurfang fight to kill his risen son, and the whole-sale slaughter the Forsaken unleashed at the Wrathgate.

So you really can't compare that to the absolutely absent Alliance in the issue with Deathwing. ))

((No one knew about Ner'zhul though...and Blizz didn't remotely play on that at all. I really wish they did.))

03/21/2012 03:19 PMPosted by Aziel

((No one knew about Ner'zhul though...and Blizz didn't remotely play on that at all. I really wish they did.))

(( Admittedly, handling that could have been better, but the point remains. The Horde at least played a roll in Wrath. The Alliance was, and I do mean this literally, useless during Cataclysm.

It's like Metzen took a break from writing anything Alliance-related.))

((Trying really hard to be fair-_- But...nope, I don't see what you see. Not a personal issue or anything for me, not an issue of Horde pride or something...just do not see it.))

03/21/2012 03:23 PMPosted by Aziel

((Trying really hard to be fair-_- But...nope, I don't see what you see. Not a personal issue or anything for me, not an issue of Horde pride or something...just do not see it.))

(( Let me rephrase, then.

In Wrath, you had the Forsaken that bombed the Wrathgate, Sylvanas who (with Thrall) put down a rebellion in Undercity, Saurfang's claiming of his dead son from the Lich King, and involvement in the Trials of the Crusader from Horde and Alliance both, where champions of both sides were chosen to march on Icecrown to take down the half-orc, half-human bad guy.

In Cataclysm, I can name not one time that the Alliance played a roll in fighting Deathwing. We didn't even get our own quest progression in the Twilight Highlands. We got thrown into the Horde one so Blizz could scrap the one that involved Varian confronting Benedictus about turning traitor.

Long story short, don't use Wrath as an example that even compares to the exlcusions in Cataclysm. At least you played a part in Wrath. ))

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that technology was bad, just that Garrosh relying on technology because technology doesn't object to what he's doing is similar to how the Old Horde started using fel-magic because fel-magic didn't object to what they were doing. It's been shown in the various books and stories that Garrosh and his commanders tend to ignore shaman concerns over their own agenda.

Keep in mind that elementals are sentient; the same cannot be said for most sources of magical power.

Are we really arguing which faction had "more love?" Like, seriously? Just stop. It's pretty damned stupid.

To back track to what someone, I forget who, said:

Not liking Garrosh = Fine, not meta gaming
Plotting to take down Garrosh because you don't like him = Cool, not meta gaming
Claiming to know Garrosh is going to lead the world to ruin in the near future = Borderline meta gaming
Flat out "knowing" Garrosh "has to be put down" because "you know he'll be corrupted some day" = Retarded meta gaming.

The game currently does not hint that Garrosh is going to turn pure evil; not yet. You can not like him, and want to kill him, to your heart's desire. There's plenty of reasons in-game to do so. Magically knowing the future because of the press-release is not one of them.

03/21/2012 03:31 PMPosted by Eslyn

Are we really arguing which faction had "more love?" Like, seriously? Just stop. It's pretty damned stupid.

(( It comes back to hoping the Alliance has something that it is doing on its own this time around. No need to come in to throw names around over a simple discussion. ))

Are we really arguing which faction had "more love?" Like, seriously? Just stop. It's pretty damned stupid.

To back track to what someone, I forget who, said:

Not like Garrosh = Fine, not meta gaming
Plotting to take down Garrosh because you don't like him = Cool, not meta gaming
Claiming to know Garrosh is going to lead the world to ruin in the near future = Borderline meta gaming
Flat out "knowing" Garrosh "has to be put down" because "you know he'll be corrupted some day" = Retarded meta gaming.

The game currently does not hint that Garrosh is going to turn pure evil; not yet. You can not like him, and want to kill him, to your heart's desire. There's plenty of reasons in-game to do so. Magically knowing the future because of the press-release is not one of them.

I'm not arguing about love; I'm trying to negate the argument:P I suppose that only fuels it though...

I really hope that no one does that, because at it stands currently, there is no more reason to take him out than Varian.

Are we really arguing which faction had "more love?" Like, seriously? Just stop. It's pretty damned stupid.

To back track to what someone, I forget who, said:

Not like Garrosh = Fine, not meta gaming
Plotting to take down Garrosh because you don't like him = Cool, not meta gaming
Claiming to know Garrosh is going to lead the world to ruin in the near future = Borderline meta gaming
Flat out "knowing" Garrosh "has to be put down" because "you know he'll be corrupted some day" = Retarded meta gaming.

The game currently does not hint that Garrosh is going to turn pure evil; not yet. You can not like him, and want to kill him, to your heart's desire. There's plenty of reasons in-game to do so. Magically knowing the future because of the press-release is not one of them.

(( Agreed on that.

But you know someone will do it. Heh. ))