World of Warcraft®

Lemme get this straight...on one hand we have Horde role players whining up a storm in Allianceooc because of Tuesday night attacks on capital cities that somehow interfere with Horde RP events in cities that aren't being attacked...and on the other hand we have Horde role players (different role players, so far as I'm aware) interrupting guild meetings by attacking the single flagged member of that guild?

Question for you, Raoul!

Is it "common courtesy" for the Alliance to not stage city raids on Tuesday nights so the Horde can hold an RP event in peace, or is it acceptable to assault RP events directly because that's not griefing at all?

Well, as you pointed out, different roleplayers.

I think that about answers your question.

That said, I'm glad you brought that up! I've seen it brought up several times now, even after it was apparently settled, especially in the context of 'whining'. While I think we've all seen our fair share of whining, as I recall there was one person who joined AOOC to explain that during the one RP event of the week, there would be no Horde-side reply - not really whining, stating a fact, and what they said was blown out of proportion and misconstrued. We're RPing. Infact, we said you were /more than welcome/ to attack an RP event, but that it's less fun all around if you're just writing a story about beating up poor NPCs while we're off elsewhere RPing!

So, thank you for bringing that up again, so I could clarify it once and for all. I'd hate for you to continue to misunderstand.

Also, my best wishes to you Cray. Having had family in the hospital recently, I know how that is. It's never fun. Hope you're well soon!

I think people in AOOC manage to whine up their own storms quite well on their own, Imperon. Horde really never 'added' to it.

Oh my goodness, Imperon, I think I love you for that post. Seriously.

Now, apparently a couple of details got left out in my telling of the story so let me clarify.

I was NOT flagged. Yet I ended up PvPing. Why? Because what I was there to do was interrupted by PvP. Now, I suppose I could have just sat there and waited til everyone was done ganking the one flagged person in a room full of people (I'm talking at least ten unflagged people in the *indoor* room).

So this whole "don't perma-flag" argument? Completely irrelevant. Gentyl is perma-flagged because she doesn't mind randomly being attacked -- and I'm sure if it hadn't been for the sour mood it put me in she wouldn't have minded just then -- and that's fine for her. I don't really see a need to ask her to flag down when being even slightly respectful of other people should indicate not to attack. The point is, the people who this interrupted and the people who this bothered were not flagged so the "don't perma-flag" argument is completely invalid -- aside from the reasons Ragefang gave for it being invalid anyways.

I mean, the whole "red is dead" argument is that if you yourself are perma-flagged, you're fair game for PvP. So someone who is not perma-flagged should not -- by your own argument -- ever, EVER be forced (or even feel forced) into PvPing.
THAT is the problem I'm trying to point out.

Frankly, Cray, if you didn't want her to be attacked, you should've politely asked her to deflag - which, I believe you said in an earlier post you did?

As such, there really shouldn't have been an issue! The attacks ceased, people went on, I'm sure the event did.

But she was only attacked in the first place due to permaflagging, and her IC reputation as the leader of a militaristic organization. I have some characters that'd certainly be a target to some, but when I don't feel like being attacked, I de-flag.

It's not really all that inconvenient to type /pvp.

The AAMS politely asks people to deflag for their events, as to avoid fighting - if you wish to do the same, that might be a good idea. It seems to work, for them!

But the gathering of a militaristic organization, /especially/ if the leader is flagged? That just -screams- assassinate me.

I mean, the whole "red is dead" argument is that if you yourself are perma-flagged, you're fair game for PvP. So someone who is not perma-flagged should not -- by your own argument -- ever, EVER be forced (or even feel forced) into PvPing.
THAT is the problem I'm trying to point out.

The problem then seems to be your own guild member... the only one forcing PvP on you is her, because she's the one that's flagged. If you really dislike PvP that much you could've just done nothing.

How many times was your meeting interrupted by PvP? And how many Horde were involved?

I only ask because we had a similar situation at one of our Clinics, shortly after we (the "less-active Horde RPers" Ragefang mentioned) asked that he reschedule his attacks to a non-Tuesday night.

After a few repeats of the attacks, we deflagged. The people who were perm-flagging deflagged. Sure, we grumbled about it a bit ICly and OOCly, but we went ahead with our evening.

So, what I'm saying is that this thread hardly seems necessary. Moving inside by Fordring was one solution. Another, if the attacks were continued, would be for Gentyl to deflag.

Or someone could've hopped Hordeside to speak with the attackers, or they could've asked one of their Horde friends on RealID to do so. It just seems like this whole issue could've handled privately and been over and done with in ten minutes, rather than dragging it to the forums.

Ok, for those who keep bringing up the zomg how stupid are you? Don't perma flagged if you don't want to be attacked!

Have you ever seen me rant about getting attacked? Have you seen me run to the forums and cry because someone hit me?

No. Never. So Lahkin and everyone else who wants to drag out that tired saw, please stop. When you see me complaining about it then hop right up on your soap box, get righteous and explain to me how I shouldn't complain about getting hit after I permaflag.

Cray was upset about it and needed to vent. I knew this would be the exact response. "zomg cry more. Don't flag if you don't want to get hit."

Called it right down to who would hop in to express their valued opinions.

Elgunaz, I could give a rat's rear about your opinions on pvp. When you have to repeatedly blue flag me while I'm mining, your opinion became pretty useless to me. Trust me. I'm not that tough. You can take me without blueflagging.

Raoul, on the other hand, to my knowledge doesn't play the stupid games when pvping. So, yes, I give some credence to his opinion. As I stated before, I was just surprised and a bit disappointed.

Dimitri did not attack to my knowledge after we moved. Thank you for that. I don't believe the mage is a rper. If she is, I'm not familiar with her so I have less expectations from her about interrupting a rp event even though this is a rp server and common courtesy is nice.

The fact remains this was a rp event. It's pretty evident to anyone with half a brain cell it was a rp event. RP events happen on this server. zomg. It was frustrating to some people that it was interrupted. We will deal with it, but to all you people who are so concerned about it, no, I am not flagging down. When you start paying my subscription fee, then feel free to tell me how to play.

In the meantime, I will remind people that healing, buffing etc does flag them, but usually things happen so quickly in an attack that people don't stop and think.

Now that we have all, yet again for the 158,934th time said. "ZOMG! Don't flag if you don't want to get ganked!!" perhaps we can get back to something interesting.

06/04/2012 01:05 AMPosted by Gentyl

It's pretty evident to anyone with half a brain cell it was a rp event.

Which is where my question for Raoul comes in. To my mind, you don't mess with other people's RP events, whether you have an in character justification for it or not. Of course, "red equals dead" isn't even an in character justification, it's the sort of thing I'd expect from a pvper who thinks role players are 'ghey'.

An invasion of a capital city is an invitation for retaliation, but a guild meeting is not an RP-PvP event (at least not for any RP guild I'm aware of). Even if the whole batch of people had been flagged up it should have been obvious they were involved in something and weren't looking to be interrupted. No, being flagged up is not automatically a request for pvp. It's too easy to accidentally flag yourself for that to be the case; especially on a pve server.

I'm not going to be involved in an attack on an RP event unless the event organizers request it. Common courtesy would dictate that as role players we not treat each other worse than griefers treat us. When what you're doing interferes more with a guild meeting than a naked night elf jumping in circles, it's time to reconsider your treatment of other community members.

Much as I'd like this not to be the case... the simple fact is, the type of people this topic is generally directed at (to speak nothing of individuals) either do not view the forums, or don't give a rat's !@# about any complaints about what they do (commonly viewing said complaints as a personal success).

They are the Bart Simpson holding a slingshot, and your active flag is you, the teacher, busying yourself in this drawer over here waving your butt in his face begging to be shot. The fact that said event does not wish to be disturbed tends to tack a "shoot me" sign onto said rear.

This is not a pleasant truth, this is not a truth I like, but it is a truth nonetheless. When these people are encountered, there will be no reasoning, there will be no negotiations, there will be no apologies. Your solutions are to indulge them in their PvP until they get bored or frustrated, or prevent them from attacking in the first place (either by deflagging or moving somewhere that will get them killed by neutral NPC's before they can accomplish anything). That is it.

I do, however, appreciate the need to vent when this type of scum rises to the top of the pond. I feel said need from time to time myself and vent accordingly.

The problem then seems to be your own guild m (ember... the only one forcing PvP on you is her, because she's the one that's flagged. If you really dislike PvP that much you could've just done nothing.

Let me see if I understand your argument here.

It would be easier if Gentyl remembered type "/pvp", waited five minutes in a safe place before doing anything, then typed "/pvp" again after the event than it is for you to NOT click on her when it's pretty clearly an inappropriate time to attack her?
I mean, as has been said before, she doesn't mind being attacked. But one with a brain might figure the ten unflagged people with her might not want to PvP at the time or they too would be flagged.

I'm not saying what you're asking her to do is difficult, but you seem to think it's easier or more convenient for someone else to go out of their way to do something than it is for you to NOT go out of your way and NOT do something.
I didn't major in English in college or anything, but I'm pretty sure your definition of "easier" is actually the opposite of what "easier" means. Because, you see, inaction does not require effort whereas action does.

I'm terrible at PvP but I do enjoy it and if I'm game for it, I'm flagged. I get that, I do. However, if I were flagged and clearly RPing with a group of unflagged people -- maybe my PvP flag is coming down, that does take five minutes -- I'm just saying it might not be appropriate to attack me and using your brain could help you figure that out instead of being an RPer who griefs an RP event.

06/03/2012 11:27 PMPosted by Knowles

I only ask because we had a similar situation at one of our Clinics, shortly after we (the "less-active Horde RPers" Ragefang mentioned) asked that he reschedule his attacks to a non-Tuesday night.

Ah, so see -- this is exactly WHY I bring things like this up in public. I had no idea if this was happening to other people or events but if it's not brought up in public...
A) We have no idea if its happening to other people, on one side of the fence or both sides of the fence.
B) If it IS happening, we can fully expect it to continue happening because no one has publicly said "don't".

Now, at least, anyone who reads the forums is at least aware that there are people who consider this behavior rude. I would say that at least decreases the chances of this happening again. And therefore it was worth bringing it up in public.
Plus, venting about it here made me feel better and really -- this time -- that was the main idea. Hey, I'm allowed to be selfish too -- and at least my being selfish didn't interrupt people's game play. You don't have to flag to read the forums!

Now, we did move on and have our event -- I wasn't saying the whole thing was horribly and irreversibly ruined. I'm just saying it should not have been interrupted to begin with.

I had this long thought out thing posted...but the more I thought about it the more I have come to a few conclusions. A> People don't care... b> Those that might care will never get heard. We can spend all day screaming about how everyone else is wrong and I am right...but where's that get us? Nowhere, just a fractured community of people who put on a grand facade to entice newcomers.

For me...I'm done with it. Flag or don't flag, attack or don't attack...personal choices all with consequences that go beyond personal. Keep those in mind.

Kord

0.o

Because taking it public and blaming everyone but yourself is the sure way to win yourself the sympathy you so desperately seek, amirite? If the person happens to be someone you don't like because they called you out on your slander in past, all the better. Cut out all possibility of a reasonable discussion and solution by removing the blame from yourself, saying you don't care and have better things to do, then painting anyone who disagrees with you as a villain and a meanie-head. I know how it works. You're pretty good at it, but it doesn't take a genius to see through you, Gentyl.

I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to drag bystanders into the drama you perpetuated in the intention to drive those who offended you off the server. Or have you forgotten why your guild was 20 people less after the last time you tried these public shams...?

Now, I am of the opinion that there's only one way to deal with a drama-queen. You won't see me replying to this thread again, and I suggest others to do the same.

And apologies to you, Cray, if I haven't said this before, for all the havoc caused here.

I only ask because we had a similar situation at one of our Clinics, shortly after we (the "less-active Horde RPers" Ragefang mentioned) asked that he reschedule his attacks to a non-Tuesday night.

I probably should have used different terminology; I know Horde RPers are as active as Alliance are. I meant "fewer in number".

Continue. :)

06/04/2012 07:32 AMPosted by Kordrion

Oh and that there is no right or wrong response here as all are subject to interpretation and human nature including my own (aka sleepy just woke up wondering wtf it persisted into the morning nature)

No, no. There is a correct response. This is clearly an issue on our server -- as its happened to Pia, it's happened to the Clinic, etc. The correct response is to no longer behave in this manner. Sorry.

06/04/2012 07:32 AMPosted by Kordrion

Oh. PS. Cray I love you to death but please...in the future...keep in mind that venting is good and makes everyone feel better but there is a much better place then the public forums where it's going to stir up a big stink. There's been more then enough of that already.

Yes, it may make a big stink but it also means that an issue is being dealt with instead of swept under the rug. I'd prefer not to have to privately throw a fit every time we have a guild meeting when I could instead throw one fit and then not have it happen again. The whole "deal with it privately" thing is well and good when it's a private issue or it only happened once. When it's obviously a bigger issue than that, dealing with it publicly has a chance of actually fixing the problem and then everyone can move on.

I'd prefer not to have to privately throw a fit every time we have a guild meeting when I could instead throw one fit and then not have it happen again.

Which is a reasonable goal, but the goal has not been reached. Your sense of right and wrong is not agreed upon by the forum posters who bothered to reply, and most people don't even read the forums and hence will not be affected by what you post anyway.

06/04/2012 08:20 AMPosted by Crayauchtin

When it's obviously a bigger issue than that, dealing with it publicly has a chance of actually fixing the problem and then everyone can move on.

But it doesn't Cray, that's what I was getting at in that. It just gives people a stage to aire old grievances and bring up old wounds that is not needed. We've been through this song and dance and it didn't work before why would it work now? There's a reason the past sticks around instead of just going away all nice like, it's there for us to learn from and frankly far as I'm concerned if i've learned anything it's that nothing has been learned at all in this.

06/04/2012 08:23 AMPosted by Elgunaz

Which is a reasonable goal, but the goal has not been reached.

Yet. The main problem is the immediate dismal instead of active engagement of the topic towards the end proposed.

06/04/2012 08:23 AMPosted by Elgunaz

Your sense of right and wrong is not agreed upon by the forum posters who bothered to reply, and most people don't even read the forums and hence will not be affected by what you post anyway.

Erm... it seems the majority of RPers appear to agree that RPers shouldn't grief RPers so the sense of right and wrong is agreed upon. It's the what constitutes griefing that isn't being agreed upon. In this case, the conflict is between being flagged and ganking someone in an RP event, because while the person flagged may be the only one. Others will flag in order to help protect or clear up the mess so they can go back to their RP event which creates a bigger storm.

The "most people won't read your post" is an excuse to dismiss the topic out of hand instead of actively engaging in it to change a behavior and possibly talk with your own guild about it at some future point once things are agreed upon.

I think the proposed solution without the outright dismissals and the personal attacks is one that was agreed upon in the past and that's RPers don't gank a person who is in an active RP with a group of people not flagged. Especially in areas that are deemed neutral sites.

06/04/2012 08:28 AMPosted by Kordrion

We've been through this song and dance and it didn't work before why would it work now?

People grow older, wiser, more mature, etc. Plus you have new people in the fray that may or may not tend to lean towards a particular solution. If you've given up on obtaining some sort of truce or working towards some sort of solution, that's fine. Let others have their opportunity to try though. It's not too much to ask is it?