World of Warcraft®

06/04/2012 08:37 AMPosted by Izby

Plus you have new people in the fray that may or may not tend to lean towards a particular solution.

For what I am talking about...new people in the fray is/was exactly the problem. And as for a truce...usually I am one of the very last people to give up on making those happen, but this has gone beyond trucemaking...it's gone into the who's right and who's wrong category. Nobody ever wants to admit they were wrong especially not if they have a strong personality...which is why I feel it's something better served by dealing with it in private where said personalities are influenced only by themselves and the other side not the peanut gallery. *Shrugs*

But if people don't dump it on the forums then where are we going to have hilariously dramatastic arguments, Kord?

The ooc channels *Nods sagely* Because light knows there's no getting THOSE to shut up...ever.

I don't know what you mean. Everytime I log on, AllianceOOC is a wealth of reasonable, informative conversation and light-hearted talk!

06/04/2012 08:57 AMPosted by Rowanne

But if people don't dump it on the forums then where are we going to have hilariously dramatastic arguments, Kord?

I think sometimes, Rowanne, drama amongst RPers is unavoidable, at least to a minimal degree. It is, after all, something that technically defines us. ;)

This said, there's a valid issue to be discussed here that doesn't have to turn into personal attacks, dredging up old dramas that shouldn't have been dramas to begin with, etc. As with any discussion of opposing viewpoints, if a degree of respect is maintained, you can peaceably disagree, even passionately.

This incident doesn't have to be specific to Pia Presidium or any other guild or affiliated faction (Horde vs. Alliance, etc.; if anything, aside from IC warmongers like myself, I've found most folks on both sides in Warcraft's conflict want to work together, at least on this realm. Amongst the "major" RP realms in our game, Cenarion Circle is the only one I'm aware of who has an organization like the AAMS, for example (and to be honest, I'm surprised it's a concept that hasn't caught on over at the much more populous Wyrmrest Accord). That's a unique identity that we can build on.

The larger issue at hand is common courtesy amongst RPers. PvP realms by their nature favor open PvP, while Normal realms favor more controlled PvP. RP realms tend to favor the most controlled PvP, as it has the potential (as has happened here) to disrupt events more in line with the intended nature of the realm.

It would seem, in general, that if, as Cray noted, there's a large gathering of a guild and only a few are flagged, there's a good chance a guild meeting is occurring, and it isn't the proper time for an attack from the other faction without prior arrangement (my aforementioned discussions with Aziel and Thelinna as a precursor to an assault on the Black Hand Society, for example).

Gentyl isn't inclined to complain about being attacked, which is why she's permaflagged. I considered doing it for awhile, and found there were times I logged in where I just wanted to farm mats or something else, and didn't want to deal with being attacked. So to maintain purity of purpose, I stopped permaflagging.

However, using the reality of one person being flagged amongst a group who aren't, and where it seems obvious some manner of RP event is occurring, is tantamount to saying "If it's red it's dead", even if that phrase isn't specifically being used.

I guess all I'd sue for is courtesy. It isn't hard with the ability to make characters of both factions, and with Real ID and the general interconnectedness of CC's RP crew, to ascertain what's happening and figure out whether it's a good time to attack the other faction or not.

Or have you forgotten why your guild was 20 people less after the last time you tried these public shams...?

rofl Yes! You saw through my clever ruse. Seriously? Cray asks role players not to gank a rp event and it is yet another of my diabolical schemes.

first laugh of the day award.

06/04/2012 09:29 AMPosted by Gentyl

Or have you forgotten why your guild was 20 people less after the last time you tried these public shams...?

rofl Yes! You saw through my clever ruse. Seriously? Cray asks role players not to gank a rp event and it is yet another of my diabolical schemes.

first laugh of the day award.

I think the implication was that posts/threads like this (and the inevitable !@#$-storm that follows) don't reflect positively on the guild.

06/04/2012 10:17 AMPosted by Genrow

Furthermore, from a roleplayer perspective, the attack wasn't justified and was blatant griefing, and personally, I'm appalled that it was a roleplayer of all people to have done it.

Oh, so do we know for sure that there wasn't an RP reason for the attack?

((Oh, I wasn't hiding the fact I'm Dimitri really, it was more a matter of some things on his profile not updating, otherwise I would have posted as him. I figured it would be obvious to all those involved in either case. I bowed out of the actual arguing a while ago for Cray's sake, but if you insist on dragging me back in, I should make a few points. I haven't had my turn at a rant, after all.

Catching up on the topic ...

1.) Gentyl didn't actually drop flag for the meeting, nor was she forced to - the meeting lasted a good hour to an hour and a half, and there was only a brief period at the start where anyone did anything. The rest of that afterwards was just folks freaking out over the initial poke.

2.) The attacks didn't stop because you moved into the area inside. They stopped because I didn't want to /actually/ grief anyone. Trust me, had I intended to grief, the little safe-area in Hearthglen wouldn't have been a deterrent. I have zero interest in actually griefing RP, and if you think that was griefing then you've honestly never actually been griefed.

3.) Common courtesy varies by person to person. I, for one, think it's common courtesy not to make a mountain out of a mole hill and make a dramatastic topic for no reason other than to cause trouble. We don't bring our issues out here, we discuss it quietly and move on like reasonable folks. Obviously, we're in disagreement here, as are we in disagreement about the definition of griefing and quite a few other things.

4.) I don't actually agree with red = dead personally or that meetings should be forced to be in guild chat, I was just hunting Gentyl in boredom and when I caught up to her, was hardly not going to at least make an attempt on her life despite her having 20 friends.

5.) Broodin, just... don't even. I've personally been attacked in Hearthglen by you while I was in RP gear at a meeting of my own, so go somewhere else >>

6.) Basically what Lahkin said. If you didn't want to be attacked, why were you flagged? Don't permaflag if you don't want to deal with what it entails. Say it was a non-pvp event all you like, and that it was bad to attack all you want, but the fact of the matter is this is not a pvp enforced server, and to flag up means to invite PvP. That should really be all there is to say on the matter, but I feel like ranting myself a bit.

7.) Hi Ragefang! I don't know who's attacked Pia Meetings in the past, although my little poke tonight was the first time in recent history I can recall attacking Gentyl in a not TB/defense related scenario. (Ie, her defending Redridge)

8.) Speaking of drama, hey, looky here. This is why I stopped caring long ago and why I don't actually care now. Its not worth the effort when people react to /anything/ like they do. Jesus Christ, people. Learn to deal with things like reasonable human beings. Is that so much to ask? Make all the topics you like in the future; its never worked out for the better in the past, and its hardly working out for the best now.

In short? Just bloody deal with it, people. Its what the reasonable half of this community does, and quite frankly I'm done trying to play "no child left behind" here.

Pretty much have to agree with everything said here.

Also, boo superfluous drama? This seems totally unnecessary.

This is the sort of alienating drama that drives people away and often marks certain roleplayers or roleplaying guilds as untouchables, out of fear of claims of unfair "play"; just as bad as godmoding, metagaming and so on. Roleplayers that flag are presenting themselves for combat (for the same reason I ensure all people involved in RP PvP flag up before confrontation). Certain respectable actions are still expected (no corpse camping...unless needed to prove a point perhaps?) but the very nature of PvP occurring between roleplayers should be more than understood by now. IC actions beget IC reactions, if a person would ICly attack this person and they are presenting themselves as flagged, it is perfectly fair to do so. Often, it would be out of character *not* to commit the action.

06/04/2012 08:52 AMPosted by Kordrion

For what I am talking about...new people in the fray is/was exactly the problem. And as for a truce...usually I am one of the very last people to give up on making those happen, but this has gone beyond trucemaking...it's gone into the who's right and who's wrong category. Nobody ever wants to admit they were wrong especially not if they have a strong personality...which is why I feel it's something better served by dealing with it in private where said personalities are influenced only by themselves and the other side not the peanut gallery. *Shrugs*

The problem right now seems to be the opposite. It seems to be history as the previous personal attacks would indicate. I don't know who's right or wrong in those past dramas and particularly don't care, but they are being brought up while we're trying to shift the conversation into a more productive direction. That doesn't indicate new being the problem.

On top of it, we're not even really discussing the source of the grief in question anymore beyond using it as an example of a thing we'd like to avoid in the future. It's happened. It's in the past now. No one has to admit fault because we're moving beyond it to discuss how we can avoid similar events in the future.

The proposal is that if you see a larger group of well-known RPers in an event with the majority of them unflagged that you use the many tools available to you to see if it would be okay to attack prior to doing it. That's it. That's all Cray and Rage and anyone else is asking for from fellow RPers. Me? I can go either way. I just thought perspective was being lost in all the bickering and hobsquabbling.

[quote="56162498837"]

The proposal is that if you see a larger group of well-known RPers in an event with the majority of them unflagged that you use the many tools available to you to see if it would be okay to attack prior to doing it. That's it. That's all Cray and Rage and anyone else is asking for from fellow RPers. Me? I can go either way. I just thought perspective was being lost in all the bickering and hobsquabbling.

It actually isn't so obvious all the time (is it a guild meeting, are people just chatting and hanging out?). I assume a potential attack on my characters life whenever I am walking about flagged. Combat itself isn't taboo and hasn't been treated as such for quite some time. The only real issue has been fair play between roleplayers when that combat has been initiated (and flagging has always been the main way to show you are a willing combatant).

Example: Aziel has a number of Modas with him, just doing their usual thing. He is, however, flagged...and a goody light-worshiping zealot sees him! I would assume the most IC reaction would be to attack him and I would fully expect it. I would expect it far more due to the roleplay reasons.

06/04/2012 09:13 AMPosted by Ragefang

drama amongst RPers is unavoidable,

Drama amongst people in any community is unavoidable. It happens, the end.

Okay, another clarification of the original post -- I was pretty sure I mentioned this in a few posts but I guess it hasn't sunk in.

We had not even been in our meeting for five minutes. If Gentyl had dropped flag, no one Hordeside would have any way of knowing. So, the other flaw in the "perma-flag" argument is that you are now asking an entire guild of people to sit around and wait five minutes doing nothing for a flag to drop before beginning our meeting -- instead of NOT attacking when it could be inappropriate or rude.
See how you're asking a whole group of people to waste time versus one person not doing something? Or even, maybe one person just waits five minutes to see if the flag drops, instead of the whole group. Again, this seems backwards from how to do things "easier".

And as Izby said, I'm not trying to place blame. I didn't -- you'll note -- point out any names in my original rant. I'm trying to make this happen less in the future. And since clearly this isn't an issue just for Pia or the Alliance as it happened at the Clinic, that seems worthwhile. It seems like this is something we should talk about in public and make an effort to avoid.

So all these claims of superfluous drama? Please direct them at the people bringing up old, totally unrelated to PvP drama.
And the people saying that this sort of thread never leads to progress? Wrong again. In the, now repeatedly mentioned, fiasco of the Tuesday night RP-PvP... people said "hey, this wasn't cool with us" and we discussed it in channels and on these forums (and, yes similar to this thread it got pretty heated at times) but in the end we all agreed that having RP-PvP against the Horde during a Horde RP event was inconsiderate and to try not to do it. I haven't heard any more complaints, so to my knowledge it seems to have worked out.

All I'm saying is that this clearly something we're not all in agreement on and discussing it so that we can come up with a general rule of thumb has some merit. We're a community, and we should put our heads together to make sure as many people in this community are happy as much of the time as possible.
It doesn't help that I'm mad over it. It doesn't help that I'm medicated and in huge amounts of pain so my anger is almost definitely over-the-top for the situation. But it also doesn't help to have a lot of people not contributing to helping solve the problem.

06/04/2012 10:24 AMPosted by Knowles

Oh, so do we know for sure that there wasn't an RP reason for the attack?

If there was one, only the attacker in question knows it and he hasn't mentioned it in any of his posts on this thread. I'm all ears if there is a reason (and I offer my full apologies for calling this griefing it was done ICly) but since it was in a neutral, fairly out of the way place (Hearthglen) it seems unlikely unless there's yet another bounty on Gentyl's head that nobody knows about...

06/04/2012 11:03 AMPosted by Aziel

It actually isn't so obvious all the time (is it a guild meeting, are people just chatting and hanging out?).

Okay. Making the assumption the attackers were already in Hearthglen and didn't stalk us there somehow.... about a dozen people show up all at once (thanks HGWT! I'll miss you!), all with the same guild tag attached to their name. Only one of them is flagged. They all file into the town hall in Hearthglen, into the third room of that building with all the seats, sit down in the seats, and begin to talk in /say.
That's exactly what happened.
Now, I'm just curious because I know what I would assume if I saw that happen. But, uh, indulge me, what would you think was going on?

06/04/2012 11:48 AMPosted by Crayauchtin

And as Izby said, I'm not trying to place blame. I didn't -- you'll note -- point out any names in my original rant.

You didn't.

06/03/2012 08:10 PMPosted by Gentyl

((All right. I was surprised that a role player would attack a meeting in Hearthglen, especially after our conversations regarding HG. I realize, Raoul, that you weren't on Raoul, but it still surprised me. And it surprises me even more that you have to get on a gnome warlock to defend it, but whatever.

She did.

So that's what this has turned into. It's a progression of things.

So you've made your point. You don't like it. Gentyl's still flagged. More attacks may follow. This really comes full circle to saying this the 158,935th time: If you don't want to be attacked, don't flag. That's really the end of the story.

P.S. Also consider not threatening people with GM intervention. It's really quite rude and certainly doesn't beget sympathy or respect if that's what you're looking for. In case you are not aware of the policy, though:

http://us.battle.net/support/en/article/player-vs-player-server-policy

If you didn't care to read it, I will sum it up for you: If you don't want to be attacked, don't flag. (158,936)

I think part of the sticking point is that HG was agreed upon as neutral territory between those involved. And the 'don't flag' comments aren't productive conversation to that end and resolution. If we want to stick by the true that HG is neutral, lets do that. If not, then lets let everyone so the killing can commence.

I see the validity of your arguments here, Cray, but I also see the validity in the arguments of the opposition. Yes, attacking RP events without permission sucks. No one with an ounce of sense would dispute that. And I know some people choose to be flagged all the time because of an IC thing. That's your decision to make. But the opposition does point out that this is not a PvP server, and that you should not have a flag up in situations you do not want to be PvP'd in. Simply condemning that argument as stupid, or accusing people of trying to stir drama because they have the audacity to question the idea of perma-flagging, does not advance your cause.

This is the issue that people have had with Pia in the past. People cite previous incidents where the exact same things have happened: The holes in the argument are pointed out, but the people who pointed them out are condemned for it - and you, Gentyl, think there's some kind of conspiracy, that we're all out to destroy Pia because we point out less-than-flattering things. To which I say: Acting like we're out to get you simply because we reveal flaws in your logic reflects very poorly on you, and your guild.

06/04/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Jyocses

So you've made your point. You don't like it. Gentyl's still flagged. More attacks may follow. This really comes full circle to saying this the 158,935th time: If you don't want to be attacked, don't flag. That's really the end of the story.

Again. I was not flagged.
Again. Five minutes had not passed after when Gentyl would have typed /pvp if she had wanted to unflag.
Again, you are doing the opposite of helping.

P.S. Also consider not threatening people with GM intervention. It's really quite rude and certainly doesn't beget sympathy or respect if that's what you're looking for. In case you are not aware of the policy, though:

http://us.battle.net/support/en/article/player-vs-player-server-policy

If you didn't care to read it, I will sum it up for you: If you don't want to be attacked, don't flag. (158,936)

Now, see, I did not threaten people with GM intervention.
But it's curious you're posting the policies for PvP servers on an RP server discussion. Because those are not the policies for our server.
And actually, what it says is more like "If you don't like PvP conflict don't roll on a PvPs server", because, y'know, that's the policy for PvP servers.
This is what you were looking for:
http://us.battle.net/support/en/article/roleplaying-policy

Just a couple quotes from that to save you some time:

If a player is found to be targeting role-players with the specific intent to harass, they may be temporarily suspended from the game.

Now, we don't know for that this this was the case but we also have not eliminated it from being the case either. But just to be clear, where this discussion is right now -- where it seems that an RPer intentionally and OOCly attacked an event that was pretty clearly IC... I call that griefing and that DOES violate the policies of our realm and should warrant GM action if it happens again (since I would say this is pretty clearly asking it to stop).

Also there's the Harassment policy...
http://us.battle.net/support/en/article/harassment-policy
Again quotes to save you time:

Zone/Area Disruption
This category includes language and/or actions intended to disturb groups of players or areas of the world, such as:
Disruption of player sponsored events or gatherings.

So, while I did not suggest GM intervention myself -- I can see why it was brought up. And I can't say that it's incorrect.

06/04/2012 12:26 PMPosted by Izby

I think part of the sticking point is that HG was agreed upon as neutral territory between those involved.

I certainly didn't get that memo. But even if I did, you're talking about a subset of people who have agreed to adhere to this rule. Maybe Homeland or Da Doctas or whomever have agreed to it. Jyocses is virtually an independent. She thinks the Alliance is weak and traitorous (she hasn't forgotten that they abandoned the high elves in their time of need). What does she care what other factions have agreed upon armistice in Hearthglen?

"RP community" isn't really one whole, lump sum. It's a loosely organized collection of different spheres united under only one banner: improvisational acting and storytelling. You don't have to like my brand of RP. But if you don't want to deal with the attacks, then there's a clear choice available to you.

06/04/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Crayauchtin

But it's curious you're posting the policies for PvP servers on an RP server discussion. Because those are not the policies for our server.

If you had read it at all, you would quickly realize this applies to PvP as a whole. And maybe you didn't lobby the threat personally, but it was made clear to me that there was such a threat.

YOU CONSENTED TO THE PVP THE MOMENT YOU TYPED /PVP OR FOUGHT BACK ERGO IT IS NOT HARASSMENT. Deal with it.

People are not being targeted as roleplayers, for the sake of harassing roleplayers. This seems more like a perfectly IC reaction considering the people being cited (that I have noticed so far), are roleplayers.

The very fact "GM intervention" is being brought into this as an acceptable solution makes this whole situation even more absurd; people simply are not going to even bother roleplaying with you if a perfectly IC reaction (a roleplayer attacking another roleplayer, who is flagged and therefore presenting themselves for combat) is considered so taboo. I am not sure if I know anyone who gets more frustrated than myself when roleplayers are being harassed for simply being roleplayers on a roleplaying server (and it happens, often) but this is hardly the case.

06/04/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Jyocses

f you had read it at all, you would quickly realize this applies to PvP as a whole.

Oh, you mean I would have realized that from where it says:

Player vs Player Realm Policy

Player versus Player (PvP) realms are specifically designed to allow open combat between members of the Horde and the Alliance factions .As such, players on these servers have a greater ability to resolve cross-faction disputes on their own. The In-Game Support staff will not intervene in cross-faction player disputes on PvP realms.

And also where it says:

If this does not sound like an appealing gameplay experience, it is strongly recommended that you select a Player versus Environment (PvE) realm.

Or where it says:

The Ongoing Harassment policy does not apply when there is a PvP resolution available on a PvP realm

and

Our aim with the above policies is to provide a hardcore PvP environment for players who choose to play on PvP realms.

Anyways, I don't know why all of a sudden we're focused on the idea of bringing GMs into it. It was mentioned once very early in this thread. And, again, no one is advocating for that. We're advocating for having a little common courtesy for each other. All I'm saying is that technically, it would not be wrong to do.

06/04/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Jyocses

YOU CONSENTED TO THE PVP THE MOMENT YOU TYPED /PVP OR FOUGHT BACK ERGO IT IS NOT HARASSMENT. Deal with it.

Right.
So the alternative is for the nearly a dozen unflagged people to sit there and wait for the two of you to decide you're bored with killing Gentyl. That's not disruptive to us at all either. Golly gee, I'm so glad you said that because now I've surely seen the error of my ways!

06/04/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Jyocses

Jyocses is virtually an independent.

So very independent none of us in Pia actually knew you were an RPer until just now. We all assumed you were a PvPer and were not nearly as peeved about you because we're used to grief from PvPers anyways. But, uhm, hi! How's it going? Hang out in any good OOC channels lately? But again, this isn't about blame. It's about making this happen less in the future.

So, uhm, just to clarify... by definition, a community is a group of people who share something in common. It could be geography, religion, ethnicity... improvisational acting and storytelling in a video game. Oh... see what I did there? :P
But as a community -- as I said -- we should be working together to make sure as many people are as happy as they can be as much of the time as possible.
Now, if thinking about it for a millisecond before clicking on someone and attacking is really this inconceivably massive inconvenience that the majority of the community feels I'm making an issue out of nothing and they can explain to me WHY it's so horrible to think about someone other than yourself, then I will shut up and I will even apologize for this entire thread.

But what I'm getting so far is.... "We want you to be courteous to our RP events because there's more of you but we don't want to be courteous at all because we're Horde and that's what we do."
Sorry to be blunt, but given the whole Tuesday night fiasco that happened and was settled with an agreement that we would be more respectful to the clinic, that's what this is drumming down to for me. And if being Horde is a pass for being selfish and rude, I vote we all stop playing Alliance altogether because, really, manners are a hassle if you can just opt out of having them by having a red background behind your character's portrait.