If you are going to raid with people, please know all the fights before hand......i mean come on >.>. If your wanting to do older content like achieves in ICC or uld or something, at least go to youtube and spend time knowing precisely what to do instead of running around with your head cut off or something >.> Even if it means you learn what you have to do and go the following week.
To all you people......
Old content or not, some of us are old-timer enough to remember when one learned how to overcome raid content by doing the content. "Progression raiding" was a nice way of saying "You wipe, over and over, but the boss' health is a little lower with each wipe, until finally you tip, and the boss starts dying."
I have no problem admitting that the expectation that someone have content memorized before ever stepping foot in the content is frustrating. I still remember my first time in Old Kingdom when Wrath launched; no one wanted to hear about the strats that had been mined from the beta, they wanted to do the bosses, learn about their abilities by experiencing them, and figure out a way to overcome them.
To me, that's how it should be. If you personally want to spend time doing "homework" before setting foot in group content, that's fine. But it's neither reasonable nor fair to others to expect them to do the same.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with learning how to down a boss instead of already knowing how to do it before you face the boss.
I have no problem admitting that the expectation that someone have content memorized before ever stepping foot in the content is frustrating. I still remember my first time in Old Kingdom when Wrath launched; no one wanted to hear about the strats that had been mined from the beta, they wanted to do the bosses, learn about their abilities by experiencing them, and figure out a way to overcome them.
To me, that's how it should be. If you personally want to spend time doing "homework" before setting foot in group content, that's fine. But it's neither reasonable nor fair to others to expect them to do the same.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with learning how to down a boss instead of already knowing how to do it before you face the boss.
It really shouldn't be that big of a deal. Gear overpoweres a lot of the previously fatal mechanics now, and the ones that can't be bulldozed through gear, you can simply tell people ahead of time.
Yeah, it's nice to have a raid that actually knows what it's doing, but especially in a pug, there's likely to be at least one person who's not seen the fights. Take 30 seconds to explain the need to knows before you pull. It's not gonna kill you.
There's not even that many deadly dangerous fights left in the wrath raids, assumming everyone's lvl 85 and in at least passable gear. Yogg-Saron (for the sanity mechanics), Lich King (Defile, and reacting to the phase transitions properly), maybe Putricide (slimes) and Sindragosa (people being stupid and getting the whole raid ice blocked) too?
Everything else I can think of should be able to be bulldozed through sheer weight of gear, plus the few that do know the fights handling the necessary mechanic to beat the boss down. And yet, if it bothers you so much...just explain the fight. You shouldn't have to sit down and watch an hour of old tankspot videos just to be allowed to go and pummel Ulduar with a lvl 85 raid.
Yeah, it's nice to have a raid that actually knows what it's doing, but especially in a pug, there's likely to be at least one person who's not seen the fights. Take 30 seconds to explain the need to knows before you pull. It's not gonna kill you.
There's not even that many deadly dangerous fights left in the wrath raids, assumming everyone's lvl 85 and in at least passable gear. Yogg-Saron (for the sanity mechanics), Lich King (Defile, and reacting to the phase transitions properly), maybe Putricide (slimes) and Sindragosa (people being stupid and getting the whole raid ice blocked) too?
Everything else I can think of should be able to be bulldozed through sheer weight of gear, plus the few that do know the fights handling the necessary mechanic to beat the boss down. And yet, if it bothers you so much...just explain the fight. You shouldn't have to sit down and watch an hour of old tankspot videos just to be allowed to go and pummel Ulduar with a lvl 85 raid.
Edited by Anirei on 7/26/2012 1:14 AM PDT
If you're doing it for the achievements I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to have at least an idea whats expected of them, old content or not.
Simply bull dozing the fight because you out gear it and ignoring the 'no longer fatal' mechanics can cost the group the achievements.
If you want to get the achievements, do some homework (at least look them up on wowhead).
If you want to be included on future acheivement runs, demonstrate some effort.
Simply bull dozing the fight because you out gear it and ignoring the 'no longer fatal' mechanics can cost the group the achievements.
If you want to get the achievements, do some homework (at least look them up on wowhead).
If you want to be included on future acheivement runs, demonstrate some effort.
Some mechanics should be known. For instance, those that kill, wipe the group or ruin an achievement(if that's sought after).
Something I tell people more often than I'd like to, "Speak up before a wipe. Not knowing and asking beforehand is much easier to deal with than a wipe and you claiming you didn't know any better."
Something I tell people more often than I'd like to, "Speak up before a wipe. Not knowing and asking beforehand is much easier to deal with than a wipe and you claiming you didn't know any better."
Taking a few minutes to analyze the Raid Journal is beneficial, which is why Blizzard has given it to us; it's fairly robust, too. Knowing what a boss can do can help an attentive raider react properly when that thing happens. This said, with the exception of a few "wonky mechanics" fights (like Blackhorn, where you have to stand in giant piles of purple in Phase 1 to burn the damage out), it's generally sensible to stay out of patches of stuff that wasn't there when the fight started. In theory, someone who isn't just raiding for the first time should know that when a small pile of black stuff shows up on the platform during the Lich King fight, you get out of it immediately. If you do that, you don't have to worry about the secondary consideration of it spreading through the raid.
In old content, you can largely ignore the fatality mechanics, with the exception of things like environmental percentage-based damage (those poison geysers on Noth the Plaguebringer can still wipe an unattentive raid of 85s, despite most people having been able to faceroll Naxxramas since the release of Ulduar), but it isn't unreasonable to expect anyone other than a new player to know those mechanics already: Naxxramas is nearly 4 years old now.
Expecting people to have memorized mechanics for current expansion content, however, isn't as reasonable. I've never gotten past the first boss of Bastion of Twilight, and have never seen the interior of Blackwing Depths, Throne of the Four Winds or Firelands. I'm geared well enough to do well in normal Dragon Soul at this point, but if someone didn't take the time to explain the fight mechanics in the Cataclysm launch raids to me, there's a good chance of me dying. Even with its nerf, Firelands can still be considered on the challenging side. I don't see what the problem is to take 30 seconds to explain fight mechanics over Vent, and no one outside of an existing raid group who's run the content with each other multiple times should be raiding Cataclysm content without a VOIP client.
I understand some people want a smooth experience, but MMOs are still a social experience on some basic level. I don't understand why people constantly try to change things around so they can just show up and collect loot/achievements without talking to people.
That person you take 30 seconds to explain a fight to can, down the road, become a very useful raid asset; are you so busy that you can't spare 30 seconds per boss?
In old content, you can largely ignore the fatality mechanics, with the exception of things like environmental percentage-based damage (those poison geysers on Noth the Plaguebringer can still wipe an unattentive raid of 85s, despite most people having been able to faceroll Naxxramas since the release of Ulduar), but it isn't unreasonable to expect anyone other than a new player to know those mechanics already: Naxxramas is nearly 4 years old now.
Expecting people to have memorized mechanics for current expansion content, however, isn't as reasonable. I've never gotten past the first boss of Bastion of Twilight, and have never seen the interior of Blackwing Depths, Throne of the Four Winds or Firelands. I'm geared well enough to do well in normal Dragon Soul at this point, but if someone didn't take the time to explain the fight mechanics in the Cataclysm launch raids to me, there's a good chance of me dying. Even with its nerf, Firelands can still be considered on the challenging side. I don't see what the problem is to take 30 seconds to explain fight mechanics over Vent, and no one outside of an existing raid group who's run the content with each other multiple times should be raiding Cataclysm content without a VOIP client.
I understand some people want a smooth experience, but MMOs are still a social experience on some basic level. I don't understand why people constantly try to change things around so they can just show up and collect loot/achievements without talking to people.
That person you take 30 seconds to explain a fight to can, down the road, become a very useful raid asset; are you so busy that you can't spare 30 seconds per boss?
It sounds like the primary complaint here isn't just about people steamrolling stuff for the sake of doing it.
It sounds like the runs being complained about are Achievement runs, which require specific execution. If someone is ignorant of that, they DO need to know what's going on and what's expected of them, because them screwing up is not a mere case of "sit there, we'll pick you up once we're finished steamrolling", in an Achievement run a screw-up and screw over the entire raid and potentially destroy the entire point of going in the first place.
Yes, people should at least be willing to explain special executions relevant to the achievement, but if it's an achievement run, in my opinion the burden goes to the individual to at least know the fight itself.
If it's not an achievement run, there's really no reason to care or complain beyond the mild annoyance of picking their sorry butt up over and over.
It sounds like the runs being complained about are Achievement runs, which require specific execution. If someone is ignorant of that, they DO need to know what's going on and what's expected of them, because them screwing up is not a mere case of "sit there, we'll pick you up once we're finished steamrolling", in an Achievement run a screw-up and screw over the entire raid and potentially destroy the entire point of going in the first place.
Yes, people should at least be willing to explain special executions relevant to the achievement, but if it's an achievement run, in my opinion the burden goes to the individual to at least know the fight itself.
If it's not an achievement run, there's really no reason to care or complain beyond the mild annoyance of picking their sorry butt up over and over.
Edited by Blazieth on 7/26/2012 8:02 AM PDT
And knowing is half the battle... YOOOOOOO JOE!!!!
It sounds like the primary complaint here isn't just about people steamrolling stuff for the sake of doing it.
It sounds like the runs being complained about are Achievement runs, which require specific execution. If someone is ignorant of that, they DO need to know what's going on and what's expected of them, because them screwing up is not a mere case of "sit there, we'll pick you up once we're finished steamrolling", in an Achievement run a screw-up and screw over the entire raid and potentially destroy the entire point of going in the first place.
Yes, people should at least be willing to explain special executions relevant to the achievement, but if it's an achievement run, in my opinion the burden goes to the individual to at least know the fight itself.
If it's not an achievement run, there's really no reason to care or complain beyond the mild annoyance of picking their sorry butt up over and over.
Point.
I maintain that it doesn't hurt to give people a refresher course in pugs though. You'll nearly always get at least -one- guy who pretends to know the fights when they actually don't. It doesn't take much time to do, and it can help things go smoothly, so why not?
Edited by Anirei on 7/26/2012 10:42 AM PDT
If I'm going to a raid that I haven't seen before, and not a spur of the moment sort of thing, I like to be familiar with some of the stuff that happens in it. Watching it happen isn't a good substitute for experiencing it, however. A group should take a few minutes to make sure everyone is on the same page before starting a boss fight. That's when you make sure everyone knows what method you'll be using in the fight, or if you need to do something specific for an achievement.
I guess it boils down to communication. Every group needs it, and the better your group is at communicating, the smoother everything tends to go. Even if it's stuff you can steamroll.
I guess it boils down to communication. Every group needs it, and the better your group is at communicating, the smoother everything tends to go. Even if it's stuff you can steamroll.
Different raids use different tactics, too, especially when it comes to achievements. The wording in achievements isn't always clear what you need to do, even if you know the fight. It's good to give out a few pointers, even if it's just "and remember to interrupt the boss' big heal spell whenever you see it!"
So, I would disagree with the OP's point, but I'm also that kind of person who only needs to play through a new fight once before I know what I'm doing (sometimes better than everyone else does, to my chagrin). In pure minutes, youtube videos ARE a waste of my time, and I've been stubborn about that since vanilla WoW. I know, I know, arrogant >.< and I know that's not the case for everyone, either.
So, I would disagree with the OP's point, but I'm also that kind of person who only needs to play through a new fight once before I know what I'm doing (sometimes better than everyone else does, to my chagrin). In pure minutes, youtube videos ARE a waste of my time, and I've been stubborn about that since vanilla WoW. I know, I know, arrogant >.< and I know that's not the case for everyone, either.
Edited by Lahkin on 7/26/2012 11:05 AM PDT
...but I'm also that kind of person who only needs to play through a new fight once before I know what I'm doing
This is me. Watching the vids on youtube doesn't cut it. I need to try it first to get the hang of it.
07/25/2012 09:35 PMPosted by FlayaIf you are going to raid with people, please know all the fights before hand......i mean come on >.>. If your wanting to do older content like achieves in ICC or uld or something, at least go to youtube and spend time knowing precisely what to do instead of running around with your head cut off or something >.> Even if it means you learn what you have to do and go the following week.
My issue: when you [Flaya] advertised a 0 light run, I expected more than one attempt at 0 light before giving up. With less than 25% of the raid even seeing the fight before, we managed to get to phase 3.
And this is why:
07/26/2012 11:03 AMPosted by LahkinSo, I would disagree with the OP's point, but I'm also that kind of person who only needs to play through a new fight once before I know what I'm doing (sometimes better than everyone else does, to my chagrin).
Most people perform better after their first attempts on a fight. They make adjustments, don't get themselves killed (or go insane), and pick up on things that were not mentioned in the description.
Aredyl that wasn't even my ulduar raid. That was the druids raid. Also i entered it figuring everyone would already know what to do, not holding peoples hands from beginning to end. So take your complain to the leader of that run not me.
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