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And no, he didn't have it right in WC3. She wasn't even saying don't do it.

Yes, apparently she was just making empty observations that added nothing to the conversation or narrative. She might as well have said "Beep boop."

I do not agree with this line of thought. She may not have been saying "no," but she was certainly expressing hesitance, questioning whether Malfurion had considered the implications. And it wasn't just immortality she was talking about, she said "our powers will wane." If you want to object to Malfurion suggesting pride is influencing her as overly harsh I could go along with it though it doesn't seem wildly out of place considering her words but saying that she doesn't pause is just plain denial of her text.

One key point in this debate is the question of if the NEs were originally mortal prior to Nozdormu's gift and if the immortality was compensation or wether it was so that they could guard the well.

I really would love to have an answer to this. The implications are huge and quite complex. For example if the NEs were immortal prior to the WotA, then the likelihood of them evolving from trolls drops. Why? Because the NEs would either have record of evolving from trolls or have only a few generations between the the time there were only Zandalari trolls around. Why do the trolls remember the titans and the NEs don't?

It raises many other questions.

How did they handle population? Elves don't seem particularly less fertile than humans or take any longer to mature. To avoid population explosion there would have to be extremely strict laws dictating who could have children and how many. Further, people wouldn't be allowed to wonder of on their own because it would risk a uncontrolled population outbreak. Unless of course we want to believe that all elves were extremely controlled about having children and that children were a rarity. Nothing in NE society seems to indicate that however.

Further, a race of undying people too till only 12 thousand or so years ago to establish an empire? Why wait so long? That's not an ancient empire. That's an empire your grandparents set up. What triggered the sudden expansion?

Honestly, I think this point is, lore wise, probably the most important one. We really need some clarification. It effects not only wether immortality is a 'natural' (as far as arcane powered sources can be natural) state for the NEs or if it was a gift. The result has huge consequences for the history of WoW (or its history making any sense anyway).

Malfurion's choice about immortality is really kind of a moot point since he hasn't had a chance to turn it down. He was against the replanting of the second World Tree because, quite rightly, he predicted that the Aspects wouldn't bless a tree that had been planted for selfish reasons. He wasn't even awake anymore when the tree was planted because he was trapped in the dream at that point.

09/09/2013 10:10 PMPosted by Trook

One key point in this debate is the question of if the NEs were originally mortal prior to Nozdormu's gift and if the immortality was compensation or wether it was so that they could guard the well.

Answered the question about Night Elves being immortal prior to Nozdormu's blessing Nordrassil back on the first page, ninth post here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9882329119?page=1#9

As for Nozdormu's reason for making the Night Elves immortal, we don't actually know. His reasons, either for blessing or not bless, are never actually addressed thoroughly. All we can really do is speculate, but none of it would actually be canon, unless someone can get a lore answer from twitter or something.

I do not agree with this line of thought. She may not have been saying "no," but she was certainly expressing hesitance, questioning whether Malfurion had considered the implications. And it wasn't just immortality she was talking about, she said "our powers will wane."

Right, which was far deeper than the immortality. And she "still" didn't say don't do it.

The fact is, it was a BS line made to look wise when it ignores the problems doing it would have caused. Problems that Blizzard, once they thought of it, backpedaled on as soon as humanly possible.

And that, boys and girls, is why we still have druids. Evil, evil; druids.

Still though, Trook, the Night Elven empire is older than 12,000 years. It's just when Azshara came into power.

Hesitance is pause. And one can say that characterizing the motivation for it as pride may be a bit harsh, there's nothing to say it's wrong to declare it overly harsh but it's not completely out of line with her words and can just as easily or even more easily be seen as a pointer for authorial intent. Malfurion saying that is an aid for the reader/listener in how Tyrande's words are to be interpreted. But of course all the fans immediately reject that, it might make her appear as something other than The Perfect Being.

edit: And I'd just like to say Thelendra, what an excellent summation of where Malfurion or any character opposed to continued immortality ought to be coming from.

09/09/2013 10:26 PMPosted by Ferlion

And, finally, him "arguing against it" doesn't make him a better person for having only argued against it. Granted or not, given or not... Doesn't matter. This is one of those cases where intent is as bad as deed.

I'm not sure I read this right. But the whole point of this thread was that Malfurion didn't argue against it. He might have played devil's advocate when having not much else to do but talk with Maiev when she had him all to herself. But Malfurion likely never even would have gotten the chance to talk to Nozdormu about immortality at all, much less argue against it.

Is immortality bad for everyone or just night elves? If just night elves then what did they do that was so bad? If for everyone where does that leave draenei, naaru, ancients, Elune, and any other immortals still around?

First of all, quoting the catchphrases of an egotistical grim reaper with a goofy flanging voice does not make you right.

I don't think something that's said once is technically a catchphrase.

Whether or not Draenei are technically immortal, which they appear to be but Blizzard has not conclusively answered, there are examples of their race far older than any living night elf, yet I would hardly liken the level 15 quest giver in bloodmyst to a God, even though he's so old he can remember Argus and still shows no signs of aging.

The oldest Draenei we know of is Velen. I don't think most of the others are anywhere near as old as him, especially since he does show signs of advanced aging.

And moreover, I've said before that deserving has little to do with it, I simply see no inherent wrong in their seeking it simply because the pursuit is selfish, so long as they don't start harming others in the effort, and am baffled by the apparent OFFENSE you seem to take at the fact that they want it.

I'm rather against it because of the insane amount of power immortality gives them over the mortal races, especially considering their previous misuse of it's advantage.

09/09/2013 08:51 PMPosted by Dierle

Lastly, I think when you talk about a sense of the night elves feeling like they "deserve" immortality or have a "right" to it, you are conflating the attitudes of the actual night elves with the attitudes and desires of their fans.

Maybe. Though, Maiev was pretty onboard the immortality train.

Yet immortality has been set up since vanilla as a carrot for the night elves to chase, only to be denied it time and again by blizzard, to the point that even when things happen that logically SHOULD restore it, it is arbitrarily refused, and players never even are given a sense that the night elves are making measurable progress towards restoring it. Rather, Blizzard seems to go in the opposite direction, ignoring the night elves natural long lifespans in recent materials and aging them at a pace that would seem exaggerated even for humans. This, of course, leaves fans of the race feeling shafted as they watch other races reach their goals and progress their stories while they are forever condemned by Blizzard to chase the unattainable, creating a sense of entitlement to a satisfying conclusion to their story arc, and for many people, the only conclusion they COULD find satisfying, is to finally catch the carrot they've been chasing all this time.

People should never have expected for Blizzard to restore the Night Elves immortality, most certainly not recently.

I mean, has anyone been paying attention to the way Blizzard writes immortal beings?

In Diablo, the Angels were nearly wiped out because of the arrogance and pride they had developed as a result of their immortality, and near the end of Diablo III are rendered totally incapable of action when the source of their power is corrupted. (I would like to note at this point that the Crystal Arch is extremely similar to Nordrassil)

In the same game, Tyrael giving up his wings and becoming mortal is portrayed as an incredibly positive move on his part. Seriously, I can't overstate how good Blizzard made this out to be, what with Tyrael going on about how he reveres every second of his new life now that each one really means something.

Do I even need to talk about the Dragon Aspects, and the "Age of Mortals"?

At this point, it's crazy to believe that Blizzard would give the Night Elves immortality again. Most of their writing has only reinforced the idea that they believe mortality isn't just a good thing, but that it's the freaking bee's knees.

(I never understood that statement, honestly.)

The oldest Draenei we know of is Velen. I don't think most of the others are anywhere near as old as him, especially since he does show signs of advanced aging.

Velen is immortal.

09/09/2013 10:42 PMPosted by Ferlion

As opposed to Malfurion jumping the gun and fans refusing to see him as anything other than the perfect being.

I have no problem with people not liking Malfurion. But a lot of the complaints against Malfurion aren't actually complaints about Malfurion, but an Eastwood vs. Chair style conversations towards something made up in their head rather than what is actually intended to be Malfurion.

09/09/2013 10:52 PMPosted by Lena

The oldest Draenei we know of is Velen. I don't think most of the others are anywhere near as old as him, especially since he does show signs of advanced aging.

Velen is immortal.

Source for that? I've never heard it explicitly stated. He's just old as dirt.

One of my problems (i think it was stated before) with the Night Elf immortality story is that it is such a big thing in their story but they never reach their goal. I was pretty excited in Krasarang when they found the waters or whatever it was but it was a real let down when it didn't restore their immortality it only let you sacrifice your life for another. It continues to be a failure, it would be nice to see atleast some progress. Or atleast some minor discovery that they are testing.

Velen is immortal.

Source for that? I've never heard it explicitly stated. He's just old as dirt.

Loreology twitter:
"At least one draenei (Velen) is immortal. We haven't specified about the others, though some do remember Argus. :)"

I don't know how to make twitter show me just that conversation or I'd link it.

It'd also be a bit odd for Velen to constantly refer to Azeroth's people as mortals if he was a mortal himself.

Source for that? I've never heard it explicitly stated. He's just old as dirt.

Loreology twitter:
"At least one draenei (Velen) is immortal. We haven't specified about the others, though some do remember Argus. :)"

I don't know how to make twitter show me just that conversation or I'd link it.

Hmm. I suppose Velen's immortality might be unique to him, seeing as he was one of the three leaders of the Eredar, back in the day.

Still, wasn't his leader story about how he had become so out of touch with his people and the world that he was rendered totally incapable of taking any action? Once again, that doesn't speak highly of Blizzard's views on immortality.

Hmm. I suppose Velen's immortality might be unique to him, seeing as he was one of the three leaders of the Eredar, back in the day.

Still, wasn't his leader story about how he had become so out of touch with his people and the world that he was rendered totally incapable of taking any action? Once again, that doesn't speak highly of Blizzard's views on immortality.

I'm pretty sure that was due to his visions of the future and not his immortality.

Hmm. I suppose Velen's immortality might be unique to him, seeing as he was one of the three leaders of the Eredar, back in the day.

Still, wasn't his leader story about how he had become so out of touch with his people and the world that he was rendered totally incapable of taking any action? Once again, that doesn't speak highly of Blizzard's views on immortality.

I'm pretty sure that was due to his visions of the future and not his immortality.

Eh. If I remember correctly, he was also reflecting on all the planets he had been forced to abandon to the Legion, and how he was focusing on finding the right vision then because he didn't want to see it happen again.

Night Elves should be immortal again. It wouldn't make them gods or cause them to turn their backs on the other races in the Alliance. Saying no they can't have it or it's not good for them because other races don't have it is petty and childish. It's like children saying we don't have it so you shouldn't either.

The whole they were cursed with immortality as punishment thing isn't true. Nozdormu simply gave the Night Elves something they would have had anyway .Besides if the aspects were going to be dumb enough to punish the elves they would have had to punish themselves as well, they didnt realize one of their own had gone mad and taken his whole flight with him and the world suffered for it, so they were in the same boat as the Night Elves . It wasn't the Aspects who rose up to fight the legion first. It was the Night Elves ,in the war of the shifting sand it was once again the Night Elves who once again rose up first and faced down danger. The dragons have never gotten involved until it was a threat to them. The elves have constantly done the aspects job and asked for nothing in return but the one time they want something the dragons turn their backs on them. So maybe the Night Elves are unofficially the protectors of the world but it's only because the dragons are asleep on the job.

If the Night Elves hadn't allowed the aspects to plant the world tree they would still be immortal. The Night elves could rip up nordrassil's roots and get their immortality from the well again if they really wanted too. But Night Elves chose to be selfless again leave the one thing stopping their immortality from coming back standing and they gave up their power source not once but twice , something no other race has done.

People keep saying the NE are arrogant for wanting to be immortal again but there's no arrogance in wanting to live especially if it doesn't hurt anyone. It's arrogant and jaded to say that people should be forced to suffer illness and death because everyone else has too.

Frankly, the night elves are in desperate need of a storyline that DOESN'T revolve around regaining their immortality. Why? Simple: because it doesn't progress their story a damn bit. It's going backwards, not forwards. That road leads to story regression and stagnation. Learning to deal with their newfound mortality opens up many more possibilities for interesting storytelling.