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I disagree with this. I don't think Night Elves are as nuclear and genderbased as this implies where a couple operates from one dwelling and labor is split accroding to gender. Night Elves are much more socialist in their approach to community and familial units. As humans, we're accustomed to dividing our families into different units, but Night Elves don't.

You're family isn't determined by blood or union, it's determined by who you allow into your life and who you choose to live with. I think villages and whatnot are more communal and not simply reversing the gender roles we're accustomed to in RL.

Only matters of military and religion were organized based on gender. If you're not part of the Sentinels, Sisterhood, Wardens, or Cricle, there probably weren't any gender roles in regards to professions, chores, or duties to the community.

I probably worded it badly then. I blame it on being late since it's easy to do so and makes for a simple cop-out.

I am also of the mind that Night Elves are not a society that practicies the Nuclear Household model. I fully believe that they are communal, or as you put it, socialistic.

I simply used the family model as an example, albeit a poor one. Even in normal every day society, though, I feel as if a male would defer to a female, as females often do to males today.

03/06/2011 1:35 AMPosted by Ferlion

This.. Remember, the military was woman only because it was made from former priestess of the moon, and even today all sentinels are trained in the basics of priesthood. The military faction was all female because the group that started it was all female.

If I had to guess, that was the reason only males were allowed to be Druids. To keep a balance, and ensure that it did not become a woman dominated society.

Even so, I feel that the Night Elves are a matriarchal society, where the women lead and the males follow.

Eh. I just don't see men being submissive to the point we see women being to men in certain parts of the world today. Women in our history have been dominated by men because of a belief that women are lesser physically, mentally, or spiritually. There is no evidence in Lore that suggest this view in reverse

I believe Ferlion hit on it earlier,

03/05/2011 10:06 PMPosted by Ferlion

The final point is... They are a Theocracy through actions other than the Temple of the Moon. After the War of the Ancients, several leaders were chosen. Malfurion, Jarod, Tyrande, and Sunstrider. They all vanished, were banished, or went away for sleep time, leaving Tyrande to rule. She was chosen to be included with the leaders because she was the high priestess of the group that faired the best against the legion.

Three of those four he listed were men. Men hold or held quite a few high positions in their culture. If their views on gender were different, we'd just see women in charge.

Only in some aspects, all leaders of the druids were male, of the military/temple female, they work together to run society. Remeber fandrel belived he could lead the night elves, he was not of the temple but a druid.

Religion: To be completely and brutally honest, I feel that many who RP Priests and Priestesses of Elune, and even to some extent, Druids, do it entirely and completely wrong. This is opinion. I am not telling you how to play. This is how I see it.

I do not see Night Elves as being... for lack of a better word, evangelical in their worship. Nothing makes me cringe more than seeing someone play a Night Elf priest who, at every available opportunity, spouts "Praise Elune!" at the top of their lungs. It does not fit the race.

I could see, in times of extremes one way or the other, this happening. But it would not be an every day occurance. And it certainly wouldn't be every few minutes.

The way I see it, they would practice an almost silent worship, with a few exclamations in times of duress or extreme joy. Battle would often be appropriate. For the most part, your average Elune-worshipping Night Elf would, in my eyes, go to the Temple once or twice a week. They would kneel by the moonwell inside, pray quietly or silently, give their thanks, and then go on their way.

The Night Elves often strike me as a people who rely more on actions than words, and I don't see this being so heavily apparent in any other place than their worship and religion. They would practice what they are taught more than praising it or spouting it to others.

I've got to disagree with you. I can't click on a night elf NPC without hearing "Elune Adore" or somesuch. Their worship is far from silent. I'd actually argue that their religion pervades their society to such an extent that us, as players, don't realize how much of it revolves around worshiping Elune. Look at all the crescents in pretty much EVERYTHING night elven: even their weapons have crescent shaped blades. Now imagine if every crescent in night elf architecture, art, iconography and design were instead judeo-christian crosses. I think we'd both agree that it's a little tacky. Night Elf religion is far from subdued nor silent, it's the opposite: oversaturated

Gender Roles: I feel that most people get the gist of this. Males, while not subordinate, in my mind, take the place that the female does in today's Western society. They are by no means lesser citizens, or the lesser of a couple, but the female would almost certainly be the head or leader of the household.

The Males of the Night Elves strike me as the type who would remain home and take care of what needs to be done while the Female goes off to 'work', so to speak. And this isn't saying that that is all that the males do. But if something were to come up that requires one to leave and one to stay, I see the male volunteering to remain at home far more often than the female would.

Yeah, no. The males are not subservient to the women. If anything, the society seems to be founded on the idea of segregation: males and females operate in (prior to WoW, at least), relatively unrelated circles. Men do their thing, usually druidic, women do their thing, usually religious or martial, and they don't really interact much, especially when the men are sleeping for thousands of years. That said, when two or more elves DO live together, the man does not allow the woman to make decisions for him: Tyrande and Malfurion make their decisions JOINTLY.

Also, I'd bet good money on the fact that more things in night elf culture have the word "moon" in their name that don't. Again, replace "moon" with "Christ" and you'd find it tacky.

"Christsabres"
"Christwells"
"Christhaven"
"Christglade"
"Christguard"
"Christberry juice"

Also, I'd bet good money on the fact that more things in night elf culture have the word "moon" in their name that don't. Again, replace "moon" with "Christ" and you'd find it tacky.

"Christsabres"
"Christwells"
"Christhaven"
"Christglade"
"Christguard"
"Christberry juice"

But...comparing judeo-christian religions to Elune is not very valid, despite your theories. We know Elune exists, and she is active in their culture in a real way. Which makes it impossible to compare to any religion we know today.

The moon thing can get a bit excessive, I admit, but thats blizzards poor attempt at a theme.

I'm not saying "elune doesn't exist" (seriously, you gotta stop assuming that just because I propose a joke theory I'm going to push it in every thread), I'm saying that the way the Night Elves use the imagery associated with Elune is the exact opposite of "silent".

When you start naming cats and booze after your goddess' icon, you're tacky.

If anything, it's not so much that elves are tacky, it's that Blizzard is incapable of subtlety.

And honestly? That's one of the reasons why their games are so goddamn fun.

03/06/2011 3:03 AMPosted by Omacron

And honestly? That's one of the reasons why their games are so goddamn fun.

Yep.

I blame bad examples or misunderstandings on the fact that it was 4 Am when I wrote this.

Let me try to clarify.

I'm not saying that the males are subservient to the females. But in a society that has been led and ruled by women for the past 15,000+ years, I feel that the men would defer to women, at the very least in matters of the state, religion, or politics(Since they have been female-led). Azshara led them, now Tyrande leads them. You could say that this is because no suitable male has stepped forth, but I say that it's simply because their culture 'favors' women over men.

You could almost trace this back to Elune being female(Much as "God" being male was used as justification for men ruling over women in our history).

And it wouldn't be to ridiculous extremes. As you said, Tyrande and Malfurion lead jointly(Even if I think Malfurion is a special case, but that's personal). In a conversation, when a male joined in, he would allow the women to speak first, but greet them first, deferring to them. If a couple were to join together to name a child, it would be the female who got the last say on what the name is.

To use another really bad example, if a Night Elven couple were to buy a house, the female would sign off on the mortgage, would hold the title, and be the one with major responsibility for the credit.



And as far as religion goes, the fact that everything is named after the moon, and Elune, that she's in one of their traditional greetings(Elune-Adore), and that Night Elves have always been portrayed as a reserved and hidden people, seems to me only to reinforce that they show their devotion to Elune through worship and actions, and not vocal(And loud) praise.

I feel obligated to point out that there were patriarchal and/or patrilinear human societies long before abrahamic religion came around. So I don't think Elune's gender is a necessary deciding factor here.

03/06/2011 8:11 AMPosted by Kellick

I feel obligated to point out that there were patriarchal and/or patrilinear human societies long before abrahamic religion came around. So I don't think Elune's gender is a necessary deciding factor here.

Night Elves didn't exist until ten or so years ago. :p So she may have well been a factor.

[quote="21907538422"]

I'm not saying that the males are subservient to the females. But in a society that has been led and ruled by women for the past 15,000+ years, I feel that the men would defer to women, at the very least in matters of the state, religion, or politics(Since they have been female-led). Azshara led them, now Tyrande leads them. You could say that this is because no suitable male has stepped forth, but I say that it's simply because their culture 'favors' women over men.

[quote]

Not true. it was Fandrel Stagehelm who was leading the armies in the war of the shifting sand. (this takes place after WotA). This is an example of a male leading the military in times of war. Before him it was Jarod, who is now back. Fandrel was heavily involved with politics beliveing he might be able to replace Tyrande.

These men did not defer to the women on how to run thier wars.

edit: must have forgot a bracket on the quote

The Wardens are the night elf's police force.

Just pointing that out.

Edit: The Wardens seem to be less "discriminite" when it comes to male or female (but the iconic Warden is female and Warden's didn't really appear until a few years ago, when traditions were dissolving anyway.)

Not true. it was Fandrel Stagehelm who was leading the armies in the war of the shifting sand. (this takes place after WotA). This is an example of a male leading the military in times of war. Before him it was Jarod, who is now back. Fandrel was heavily involved with politics beliveing he might be able to replace Tyrande.

These men did not defer to the women on how to run thier wars.

Consider them the exception and not the rule.

The Wardens are the night elf's police force.

Just pointing that out.

Edit: The Wardens seem to be less "discriminite" when it comes to male or female (but the iconic Warden is female and Warden's didn't really appear until a few years ago, when traditions were dissolving anyway.)

I feel this has been covered as much as it really needs to be, to be honest.

Men are in no means less suited to politics than women. The Cenarion Circle has plenty of political wheeling and dealing involved in it, and Fandral Staghelm is a prime example. The thing is, for the most part, I believe that men, especially druids, are simply DISINTERESTED in state, religion and politics, since they tended to be more concerned with druidism.

If a man needed to get involved in politics, he would. But he had better things to do like talk to trees. Basically, look at politics as the reason why men in most real societies don't cook- because they feel, at least, they have better things to do, not that men should not be ABLE to cook. If a man decides to cook dinner, he can, but normally he's busy working.

Wardens: I'd imagine the wardens are guardians of the druids' barrows; and double as prison guards when the need arrises. The barrows are powerful places; there to amplify or contain immense magical energies - hence the barrows and their guardians would be a good choice to keep the dangerously powerful NE villainy (ie., Illidan) under lock and key.

Or then again, for all we know the Wardens were formed simply as a response to Illidan needing incarceration - he might have been their only prisoner.

Sentinels: they're not just a 'police force' and I don't think using modern day analogy can really describe their role. They do form one part of the NE army - which is also composed of druids, huntresses*, and a whole menagerie of creatures and things from the forests they inhabit. In times of 'peace' they double as the city guardians and the arm of the priestesshood, but in battle they provide huge ultra-competant units of archers around which the rest of the army is built.


* Most people seem to deride the idea of cat cavalry, but I think it works really well for forested zones... great for moving large units around quickly in an area that doesn't have roads. Plus how many other cavalry units would have "Up!" as a command; you could hide a troop up in the trees as your enemies blunder about below before pouncing to ambush them.