World of Warcraft®

Because War of the Ancients was a novel about the Night Elves, those two in particular, fighting a war against the Burning Legion. They, and Illidan, were the stars of that Novel.

World of Warcraft is a game about a great hero of the alliance/horde who saves the world. You and I are the stars of the World of Warcraft, so we're going to see that Malfurion, Tyrande, even Varian and Anduin, are ultimately irrelevant.

03/22/2014 02:54 PMPosted by Dorcy

Because War of the Ancients was a novel about the Night Elves, those two in particular, fighting a war against the Burning Legion. They, and Illidan, were the stars of that Novel.

World of Warcraft is a game about a great hero of the alliance/horde who saves the world. You and I are the stars of the World of Warcraft, so we're going to see that Malfurion, Tyrande, even Varian and Anduin, are ultimately irrelevant.

The thing with that is that while we're the ones who save the world (except when Thrall does) from big scary threats, we can't save our nations from all the national issues they face because Blizz isn't interested in letting us do that. So everyone looks to their faction leaders to not be total boobs and actually lead.

03/22/2014 02:18 PMPosted by Seebach

03/19/2014 09:05 AMPosted by Ferliona

Because Blizzard's creative potential is hampered by nostalgia, and the internet being the internet, people respond to "the good old days" with great enthusiasm, even if it was a far inferior product.

Maybe one day they will snap out of it? Who knows.

You do realize that Malfurion and Tyrande are "The Good Old Days" too right?

So Peoples opinions are hampered by nostalgia, even if they were inferior products.

Not quite what I mean.

While todays Malfurion and Tyrande ARE inferior to "back then", they are also "current" characters in that they are around, alive and should be active. Same with Jaina, Thrall, and even Genn from WC2.

The story for them is still ongoing, still active, and still alive, and while people may fondly remember how they first encountered these characters, my response was more in general.

Blizzard is retelling WC1 and WC2. It's trying to reshape the game back into Orcs vs Humans, lets go, lets go, lets go FACTION WAR. It's flat out been said nostalgia was the reason we go back to see the old school Orcs.

Blizzard isn't interested in furthering their story. They are interested in reliving the days of WC1 and WC2 at the "expense" of the story.

Which is why we now have a nonsense time travel dimension hopping plot that involves long dead orcs and other such crap. Which DOES have potential, if they explore it properly, and focus things less on those orcs, and more on the implications and backlashes that such a thing can cause, ESPECIALLY now that the time cops are out of the picture. But they won't, because Blizzard doesn't put that much thought into their stories.

03/22/2014 03:23 PMPosted by Sivarthae

The thing with that is that while we're the ones who save the world (except when Thrall does) from big scary threats, we can't save our nations from all the national issues they face because Blizz isn't interested in letting us do that. So everyone looks to their faction leaders to not be total boobs and actually lead.

War being an extension of politics by other means, I can only say that it'd be an awfully boring world if we lost all reason to engage in Warcraft. I know, I'm oversimplifying, but this game has been going for over 10 years now? At this point the developers must be so strapped for fresh and new ideas that they can't afford to eliminate a single possible conflict seed without developing it fully.

But who knows, maybe they'll be so out of ideas after WoD that we get an honest and well conceived peace expansion that resolves countless issues, just because they have no other ideas.

03/22/2014 03:29 PMPosted by Ferliona

Not quite what I mean.

No, I knew what you mean.

But you pine for Nostalgic moments the same as Blizzard does with their stuff, and so you hide in the "Nostalgic" era of the characters because, frankly, they're bad.

But that doesn't make what you're doing good.

You are accusing Blizzard of the thing that you yourself are perpetrating.

To be honest, I think that'll happen right when Sargeras becomes the last raid boss. Various devs have talked about how they like an unfair nasty world to produce exemplary people, so they'll probably grind out one conflict after another till they have to resolve the underlying story for the finale. They're better with single player game stories imo.

Personally I thought the best seeds were lost once we took down Arthas. Deathwing, despite being potentially more powerful, was just some big dragon from a novel and a hero unit from the WC2 expansion. He did not (nor did Garrosh) have anywhere near the gravitas that Arthas and Illidan did.

Yeah, well maybe Blizzard will wake up one day and agree with you. Or they'll see that they have the next 3 expansion bosses planned out and it'll be easier to plot the stories if they didn't have to worry about the factions killing each other.

But yeah, probably not likely.

But that doesn't make what you're doing good.

You are accusing Blizzard of the thing that you yourself are perpetrating.

I very much disagree. While I may say how Tyrande's characterization doesn't make sense in ALP due to her WC3 persona, that doesn't mean I want her WC3 persona back either. I want progression and logical character development, not characters given and plots put forth just because it was like that in the old days.

Changes in the story and in characters should follow a logical and well developed path, not be used as justifications and plot devices to prop up other characters.

Tyrande and Malfurion don't follow logical paths. Malfurion wouldn't stand aside and let people destroy his forest. Cenarius wouldn't either.

The story should have never placed them into the position to choose, and if it did, it should have been rationalized and dealt with in ways that played to the character, not played to the necessity of the plot.

Night Elves should be adapting to the Alliance....but the Alliance should be adapting to them as well. It's not Nostalgia that makes me want Elune to not be a Naaru, the Night Elves to not use the Light, and for them to not be giving up their culture and losing biological functions and disadvantages/advantages..

It's respect for the art of story telling. Any and every idea I have for Night Elves (or any race at all) stems from points and plots mentioned in the past. They are ALWAYS organic, if sometimes stemming from an obscure piece of lore.

I don't want WC3 Night Elves. I think WC3 was the time for WC3 Night Elves...

But I DO want Night Elves that make sense and reconcile with what we saw in WC3, where the growth and changes are both logical and in tune with what we knew of their characterization. The lift of male/female thing was well done at first, with it being a cultural thing that war and death forced them to adapt to.

Flat out retcons to the forest creatures and allies? Not so much. And that's the difference between what I do and what Blizzard does.

They actively destroy and change and retcon because they miss the good old days.. I want the good old days to remain the good old days, but I also expect those days to have meaningful and powerful motivators for the story today.

Blizzard's storytelling has in general been horrible for several expansions now. The reason for this is they have focused too much on the likes of Varian, Thrall, Garrosh and Jaina and not developed much of a story or character progression for anyone else.

Story wise, Blizzard has laid some reasonable character foundations...they just haven't explored or expanded on any of them apart from Orcs or Humans.

Sadly, I don't think Blizzard is every going to remove the central focus of WoW from the Orcs vs. Humans concept. Really though, they should have abandoned that concept entirely and permanently when World of Warcraft started and made it equally about all the races and put focus on different racial leaders in diffierent patches.

So you want them to change into what exactly? Because if you want them to go back to things they did in the past, that's Nostalgia.

I guess at the very least you don't want to have Tyrande and Malfurion killed... off...

oh...

03/22/2014 06:00 PMPosted by Seebach

So you want them to change into what exactly? Because if you want them to go back to things they did in the past, that's Nostalgia.

I guess at the very least you don't want to have Tyrande and Malfurion killed... off...

oh...

I want them to have an actual part in the story rather than being left in the corner to collect dust.

03/22/2014 06:00 PMPosted by Seebach

So you want them to change into what exactly? Because if you want them to go back to things they did in the past, that's Nostalgia.

I guess at the very least you don't want to have Tyrande and Malfurion killed... off...

oh...

I want them to have roles in the story that plays to the strength of their characters.

The problem with Malfurion and Tyrande in particular though is that Blizzard has made them stronger than they were in WC3. Malfurion's made hurricanes, storms that have halted armies, strikes that have been heard across the planet.

Tyrande... Literally seems to have no limit to what she can do. Every time we see her, she has new tricks that have never been heard of.

Malfurion and Tyrande have fallen into a trap (a few of WoW's characters have) where they are defined by the power they have, and that power growing stands in for character development and story.

<span class="truncated">...</span>

You do realize that Malfurion and Tyrande are "The Good Old Days" too right?

So Peoples opinions are hampered by nostalgia, even if they were inferior products.

Not quite what I mean.

While todays Malfurion and Tyrande ARE inferior to "back then", they are also "current" characters in that they are around, alive and should be active. Same with Jaina, Thrall, and even Genn from WC2.

The story for them is still ongoing, still active, and still alive, and while people may fondly remember how they first encountered these characters, my response was more in general.

Blizzard is retelling WC1 and WC2. It's trying to reshape the game back into Orcs vs Humans, lets go, lets go, lets go FACTION WAR. It's flat out been said nostalgia was the reason we go back to see the old school Orcs.

Blizzard isn't interested in furthering their story. They are interested in reliving the days of WC1 and WC2 at the "expense" of the story.

Which is why we now have a nonsense time travel dimension hopping plot that involves long dead orcs and other such crap. Which DOES have potential, if they explore it properly, and focus things less on those orcs, and more on the implications and backlashes that such a thing can cause, ESPECIALLY now that the time cops are out of the picture. But they won't, because Blizzard doesn't put that much thought into their stories.

If that's true then how come after Cataclysm dealt with war that MoP dealt with peace and of how bad the war had been? Why didn't they just skip over the expansion talking about how war is ruining the world and just skip to the expansion where we go back and visit all the Warcraft 1 veterans instead?

If they're trying the pattern that you described they're doing then they're doing it so completely wrong that one expansion completely contradicts the other two. Or was MoP all some kind of elaborate plan just to get Garrosh on the WoD side instead of the current Horde's?

If they're trying the pattern that you described they're doing then they're doing it so completely wrong that one expansion completely contradicts the other two. Or was MoP all some kind of elaborate plan just to get Garrosh on the WoD side instead of the current Horde's?

MoP wasn't about war is bad though. If anything, it's the opposite. It's how Violence and power, when applied for the right reasons, are forces for good. The Sha, The Zandalari, The Klaxxi. Even Wrathion. It was countered with the theme of Garrosh, where violence coupled with racism, blind aggression, anger, and hate was bad.

Even with Garrosh, more "good" came from the war in Pandaland than bad.

03/22/2014 05:58 PMPosted by Aethenor

Blizzard's storytelling has in general been horrible for several expansions now. The reason for this is they have focused too much on the likes of Varian, Thrall, Garrosh and Jaina and not developed much of a story or character progression for anyone else.

Story wise, Blizzard has laid some reasonable character foundations...they just haven't explored or expanded on any of them apart from Orcs or Humans.

Sadly, I don't think Blizzard is every going to remove the central focus of WoW from the Orcs vs. Humans concept. Really though, they should have abandoned that concept entirely and permanently when World of Warcraft started and made it equally about all the races and put focus on different racial leaders in diffierent patches.

Equality seems to be the main thing that they're lacking. If we go back the past few expansions I'll show you:

- In BC, players complained that they didn't see Illidan enough, so in WotLK they had Arthas appearing all the time, in every questline. After that happened everyone complained wanting him gone so for Cataclysm, Deathwing never showed up at all.

- In Vanilla we got to see Thrall around and people wanted more of his appearances since Warcraft 3, so they had that short questline in BC where he reformed Garrosh. People liked that but then in WotLK, everyone complained that he only showed up in Vanilla and that one questline in BC so they wanted to see him more. So come Cataclysm, they decided it was his time to shine so they made him into the superman of Azeroth.

- People complained that they didn't see enough of Jaina, so in MoP after they completely changed around Jaina's personality and made her into a badass, she sat around and did nothing but give out quests.

You could probably look at every event that's happened in the game and realize that they had been written in one form or another based on the fanbase's response to the previous expansion. Given the fact that everyone's been complaining about how the game is just Orcs vs Humans, and that the Alliance doesn't get an opportunity to shine anymore, I think they took taking down the Horde as a great Alliance victory, and an indication to show that it wasn't all about the Orcs anymore.

If you look at the next expansion you can see that they're trying to reinforce that ideal as well. You can practically see them thinking that the fanbase didn't get their message that Orcs aren't the favorite race anymore so now we're going back in time to kill off all the Orcish heroes to prove that for a fact.

03/22/2014 08:42 PMPosted by Ferliona

If they're trying the pattern that you described they're doing then they're doing it so completely wrong that one expansion completely contradicts the other two. Or was MoP all some kind of elaborate plan just to get Garrosh on the WoD side instead of the current Horde's?

MoP wasn't about war is bad though. If anything, it's the opposite. It's how Violence and power, when applied for the right reasons, are forces for good. The Sha, The Zandalari, The Klaxxi. Even Wrathion. It was countered with the theme of Garrosh, where violence coupled with racism, blind aggression, anger, and hate was bad.

Even with Garrosh, more "good" came from the war in Pandaland than bad.

One of the main things I liked about Garrosh was that he promoted the war effort. Even if his ideals were completely nonsensical, it gave members of the Horde something to fight for, to defeat the Alliance and serve their faction well to earn the entire world as their prize. Doesn't make for a good story, but it gives the potential for a good story.

While Garrosh was a completely black and white character with practically no reasoning for why he hated the Alliance nor of why we should go to war with them, he was also one of the primary drivers towards the war with the Alliance.

War makes for good stories. It has the potential to evolve into something truly worthwhile. That was one of the reasons for why I was so against Mists of Pandaria. With peace dominating the story there can be no conflict. With no conflict, the story can never advance and we'll end up with barely anything.

Look at the Pandaren. They are not interesting in the slightest. With no war advancing their race, they've had nothing to strive for, as a result the great majority of the quests in Pandaria had been devoted to improving their standard of living.