World of Warcraft®

05/29/2011 02:42 PMPosted by Leityn

I don't doubt that during the Third War, several male hunters and warriors existed.

As I've said repeatedly, being a hunter or warrior is not the same as being accepted into the formal military. There were likely male warriors or hunters during the vigil, what wasn't likely was that they were part of the Sentinel Army.

05/29/2011 02:17 PMPosted by Melyria

That said, there were male military commanders even during the long vigil. Valstann Staghelm commanded the night elf armies during the War of the Shifting Sands, and he was not a druid. He was a warrior.

>Son of a powerful druid
>War in Silithus
>Male Warrior

Sounds about right to join the military side of the Cenarions.

And yet he was never said to be a druid, part of the cenarion circle, or anything else. He was never depicted as using druid abilities, never used armor or weapons associated with druids, and here's the important part, he's explicitly said to be leading the KALDOREI, not CENARION armies.


EDIT: To make it clear, I'm not insisting that Valstann was a member of the Sentinels. I agree with you that up until WoW, the sentinels was female only. I am insisting that the sentinels were not the entirety of the night elf armed forces (much like the Marines and Army are not the same), and that there were male warriors who were respected the point where they were allowed to command the sentinels, and that after WoW, males began to be accepted into the sentinel army, to the point where, in Cata, 5 years after vanilla WoW, there are now MALE commanders WITHIN the sentinels.

05/29/2011 02:49 PMPosted by Omacron

And yet he was never said to be a druid, part of the cenarion circle, or anything else. He was never depicted as using druid abilities, never used armor or weapons associated with druids, and here's the important part, he's explicitly said to be leading the KALDOREI, not CENARION armies.

Its been shown, repeatedly, that male, non druids and druids, are in charge of the standing Cenarion Army. This group accepts males and females into their ranks and does not represent the Kaldorei as a formal army, just as the Cenarions don't truly represent the Kaldorei. By this I mean the Cenarions can and do disagree with the Temple and do work toward their own ends.

This does not mean the two cannot share the same interests. This also doesn't mean that being the son of one of the most powerful druids alive doesn't give you some privilages.

EDIT: To make it clear, I'm not insisting that Valstann was a member of the Sentinels. I agree with you that up until WoW, the sentinels was female only. I am insisting that there were male, secular warriors and professional soldiers part of the night elf state and part of the chain of command to the point where they were allowed to command the sentinels, and that after WoW, males began to be accepted into the sentinel army, to the point where, in Cata, 5 years after vanilla WoW, there are now MALE commanders WITHIN the sentinels.

And I'm not saying there weren't male warriors. What I'm saying is that there were two major examples, Vastann and Shadowsong. Shadowsong has not been seen up until this point, leaving Vastann as our example. He, however, may not be the best to showcase your point given that:

-Vastann was the son of a druid who's power was in the tier of Malfurion and Broll
-The son of the commanding druid
-Likely was part of the Cenarion Army

WE have one example of a male leading a Sentinel army, a war run by Fandral, and his son was given a commander position. This does not equal conclusive evidence that there were spades of non-druid men in leadership roles at the time.

Its a take on the culture. In the opening I do state that there are more adventurerous and non-traditional elves, to some degree. But to be non-traditional or liberal you do still have to know where your race sits on issues.

*blinks* Well, you don't have to be a non-traditionalist to not follow this, either. This is a player-made thread, not fact. I'm just surprised so many people are getting upset about an opinion of a race.

[quote]
I'm just surprised so many people are getting upset about an opinion of a race.

I think it's because Melyria presents it as fact--not as her opinion. But I could be wrong.

I would be interested in seeing a guide such as this that takes its info from in-game sources or the novels ONLY. Yes, I am suspect of the RPGs and handbook. I believe that's a pretty common opinion among RPers. (And the novels too, but I think Blizzard has stated that they're lore.)

I would also be interested in seeing all sources given for each bit of info. For me, without a citation given, it's player opinion.

However, I don't RP night elves, so I'm speaking generally, for anyone who creates such guides.

05/29/2011 04:17 PMPosted by Tamsyn

(And the novels too, but I think Blizzard has stated that they're lore.)

Blizzard has also said that the RPG books are confirmed lore as well.

05/29/2011 04:29 PMPosted by Sevelic

So...Captain Elendilad is a Sentinel?

And I mentioned multiple times that the Silverwings do have a couple males in their ranks.

Necromancy is an extension of arcane magic. So, shamans talk to the ancestors, Light wielders bring back the dead, Night Elf Wardens doing their Avatar of Vengeance deal, and it is not necromancy due to it not being arcane magic.

Might wanna get that strange idea that all magic even slightly influenced by the dead is necromancy.

Edit: Getting a bit off topic while still discussing necromancy. The Sentinels do not represent the entire Night Elven forces, and not all Night Elves in the military are specifically a part of the Darnassian military. Some night elves have pursued aiding their allies in Alterac Valley, while others have joined the collective 7th Legion, many of which are male.

Gnomes are totally misrepresented in this guide. Clearly. There is absolutely no mention of our various efforts to make a mechanical longbow for the night elves.


Bump.

Its been shown, repeatedly, that male, non druids and druids, are in charge of the standing Cenarion Army. This group accepts males and females into their ranks and does not represent the Kaldorei as a formal army, just as the Cenarions don't truly represent the Kaldorei. By this I mean the Cenarions can and do disagree with the Temple and do work toward their own ends.

This does not mean the two cannot share the same interests. This also doesn't mean that being the son of one of the most powerful druids alive doesn't give you some privilages.

But Valstann was leading the Kaldorei armies, not the Cenarion armies. As such, he was, quite literally, representing them. Have you read the Shifting Sands story?

05/29/2011 04:57 PMPosted by Looped

Necromancy is an extension of arcane magic. So, shamans talk to the ancestors, Light wielders bring back the dead, Night Elf Wardens doing their Avatar of Vengeance deal, and it is not necromancy due to it not being arcane magic.

Where does that leave voodoo, then?

05/29/2011 07:03 PMPosted by Omacron

But Valstann was leading the Kaldorei armies, not the Cenarion armies. As such, he was, quite literally, representing them. Have you read the Shifting Sands story?

If a Brit leads an American army during a battle, obviously he represents America.

He was the son of a man who was incredibly proud of him. I'd be surprised if he didn't get a station of power in that war. He was simply a warrior of the Cenarion Army put in charge of both the Sentinels and the Druids, under his father. His father was a druid, the one commanding the army.

If he wasn't Staghelm's son it wouldn't be likely he'd have led anyone.

EDIT: To make it clear, I'm not insisting that Valstann was a member of the Sentinels. I agree with you that up until WoW, the sentinels was female only. I am insisting that the sentinels were not the entirety of the night elf armed forces (much like the Marines and Army are not the same), and that there were male warriors who were respected the point where they were allowed to command the sentinels, and that after WoW, males began to be accepted into the sentinel army, to the point where, in Cata, 5 years after vanilla WoW, there are now MALE commanders WITHIN the sentinels.

I'd just like to point out that enlisted members of the military in the real world don't get to be commanders after just 5 years in. And considering that night elves live much, much longer, it isn't a far stretch of the imagination to say that 5 years in the Kaldorei military is -nothing-. Even those who opt to go to a military academy for a few years prior to actual service will not begin their term after graduation as a commander. As such, this train of reasoning would more point to a small number of males who remained in the Kaldorei military, just not the Sentinels specifically, after the WotA and became successful enough to gain a high rank.

05/29/2011 08:20 PMPosted by Kaemrys

OR it's just possible that because something is USUALLY one way, like females leading the military, doesn't mean it is ALWAYS that way. There are always exceptions and Blizzard does not give any conclusive evidence to the contrary. They show a trend. With a trend there are always outliers. Can a male join the sentinels? Yes. Will he ever rise far? Unlikely but not impossible, it was hard enough just to get into a female run organization. Will those males then ever find themselves in a position to command? Well apparently once every few thousand years. THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS. It doesn't mean it is common.

Or, it is entirely possible that these soldiers were part of the Cenarion Army and did transfer over. As I've said, the Cenarions seem to favor male military leaders, as we see in game.

Bump.

Omacron

...

persei eight.

<.< bump (This is a good guide)

Posted by Kaemrys
OR it's just possible that because something is USUALLY one way, like females leading the military, doesn't mean it is ALWAYS that way. There are always exceptions and Blizzard does not give any conclusive evidence to the contrary. They show a trend. With a trend there are always outliers. Can a male join the sentinels? Yes. Will he ever rise far? Unlikely but not impossible, it was hard enough just to get into a female run organization. Will those males then ever find themselves in a position to command? Well apparently once every few thousand years. THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS. It doesn't mean it is common.

Or, it is entirely possible that these soldiers were part of the Cenarion Army and did transfer over. As I've said, the Cenarions seem to favor male military leaders, as we see in game.

It's possible either way. Therefore, neither of you can say, with certainty, that it is a fact.