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Ragefang:
Thank you clearing up what happened; but that's exactly what we're talking about that Razortalons will be ignoring. You apologized for attacking during Clinic. You did again. You posted that you murdered our people and burned our cities. This is the kind of thing we're just going to flat out ignore, because what's the point? You killed a bunch of NPCs with very little defense up until you hit Undercity, after we mentioned many times no one is coming to defend if you attack during Clinic. That's all there is to it. I'll take you at word, and I'd like to continue what's been happening aside from this incident.

Cyrus:
Not sure how that applies. The locations don't matter, it's the act that does.

04/04/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Eslyn

Not sure how that applies. The locations don't matter, it's the act that does.

I meant more that the Alliance wouldn't make it to the clinic in Orgrimmar due to it being where all the Horde on the server are. The Horde can walk into Ironforge and meet only NPCs. In both cases, the two sides attack where they can.

04/04/2012 02:33 PMPosted by Çyrus

Not sure how that applies. The locations don't matter, it's the act that does.

I meant more that the Alliance wouldn't make it to the clinic in Orgrimmar due to it being where all the Horde on the server are. The Horde can walk into Ironforge and meet only NPCs. In both cases, the two sides attack where they can.

That still doesn't apply, at all. Raoul said it was as if you held Clinic on Monday, and we decided to go on a major offensive. Where doesn't really matter. But we utterly wreck the NPCs of this city, kill the two or three people who show up, and then post on the forums

"Hey folks, just wanna let you know we UTTERLY OBLITERATED YOUR PEOPLE. MURDERED YOUR FAMILIES. DESTROYED YOUR CITY. PEACE OUT."

Is this fair? No. Is it fun for anyone but us? No. But that's exactly what happened.

Eslyn, I think personally that your sense of timing on the order of events is skewed, as I don't recall it happening in the order that you presented.

But either way, I'm not going to argue about it. I'm tempted at this point to just wash my hands of the whole damned thing.

the Alliance wouldn't make it to the clinic in Orgrimmar

Actually...I remember many many times back near the start of the expansion when people were much less geared that we had to actively defend the clinic/chase people off. If anything it's easier now. Despite being in orgrimmar not a whole lot of people beyond those of us there did much to defend, most folks are still clustered in VoS lost in their own virtual worlds.

04/04/2012 02:38 PMPosted by Eslyn

"Hey folks, just wanna let you know we UTTERLY OBLITERATED YOUR PEOPLE. MURDERED YOUR FAMILIES. DESTROYED YOUR CITY. PEACE OUT."

So... where did we claim to obliterate people, murder families and destroy cities? That's a bit of news to me. I mean, that really could be what happened, as I've been a bit out of the loop.

As for not making it to the clinic, actually, yes, you can, quite easily. I've seen 3 Alliance simply fly in and try to attack it, not some few weeks back. That's not the point, of course, as its still just an example, so do stop focusing on that, if you'd be so kind.

Ah, Ragefang, yes, that is the order of how it happened. I can assure you with great certainty that you lot hit Andorhal/Bulwark (those poor argent crusade npcs didn't do anytihng to you :( ) and Undericty, everyone had that convo in Alliance OOC, and then an hour later (or two) Twilight Highlands and Hammerfall got hit, which were included in that writeup post.

Cyrus - from the other topic.

This very night, your soldiers have died at my blade, and the spells and weapons of my allies. This very night, your occupation of Andorhal ground to a screeching halt. This very night, the forces at a Bulwark no longer needed fell. This very night, we stood in the center of your wretched Undercity, taking on all guards, and making it known that we will not tolerate Sylvanas' crimes.

This very night, your military hold in the Twilight Highlands was razed.

This very night, goblins at the Krazzworks were slain.

This very night, orcs and trolls at Hammerfall, in lands rightly belonging to the remnants of Arathi, were slain.

04/04/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Raoul

Ah, Ragefang, yes, that is the order of how it happened. I can assure you with great certainty that you lot hit Andorhal/Bulwark (those poor argent crusade npcs didn't do anytihng to you :( ) and Undericty, everyone had that convo in Alliance OOC, and then an hour later (or two) Twilight Highlands and Hammerfall got hit, which were included in that writeup post.

That's not really fair, Raoul. They believed they were responding to an attack

EDIT: I'll agree that what was posted was a bit far, but does this mean the Horde is no longer allowed to post about things that happen, of this nature, unless we were given several days warning?

I'm not commenting on whether it is fair or not, merely clarifying that the order of events was correct. You are free to interpret them as you wish, I am merely stating the chronology.

I'm not commenting on whether it is fair or not, merely clarifying that the order of events was correct. You are free to interpret them as you wish, I am merely stating the chronology. I also do not believe you've actually fully read the details, as our stance has been stated quite repeatedly. I'm really not going to get lost in semantics and details, and so if you would fully like to understand it better, you are free to read over the posts again.

It's really not worth it at this point. Apparently by not agreeing with what's being said, I didn't read everything and don't understand.

I understand if the Alliance attack the Horde during RP events. I myself don't do it, but if a few folks wanna take a break from being steamrolled every Sunday, I'm not gonna be the one that tells them they have to stop.

04/04/2012 01:50 PMPosted by Çyrus

Last week a rogue was griefing/interrupting the War Council meeting by sapping players that happened to be flagged, so they apparently felt it more productive to go hit somewhere rather than sit there and be made to look like fools. This was not intended to break up a Horde event.

Just a clarification.....said rogue *was* there on rp reasoning. It's entirely my fault that the write up of that isn't up yet, I've just been very busy.

I also apologize to Kitsierra if she reads this, since people are missing the background fact that she's such a raging !@#$%^-/racist to the alliance...and well..everyone that isn't Sin'dorei.

So that last Tuesday before isn't really the issue, it was retaliation for an event that occurred, which is valid.

I also want to add...@Gentyl, I do want to state we didn't realize you were afk the other day until you dropped so quickly. But, in our defense, the leader of the Presidium was standing flagged and unguarded...for a small group of us planning on *going* the attack route, you just made a very tempting target.

*Furthermore* if something should happen again where someone gets stuck in a space they can't res at, I have a few aams types that can get ahold of me. Let us know and we will 100% back off and let someone come get them. It's not fun having to spirit res.

All our pushes against people so far have been very fun for our little coterie, and we would like them to remain fun for you.

PS- we need a healer in our group. >:3

Heh, Gen, I wasn't trying to say that, at all - I merely used Pia as an example because Pia /always/ shows up to defend.

I don't mind that you used Pia at all. There was nothing derogatory in your example and Pia does try to defend. My point is Pia will continue to defend as do some others who usually come if we ask and they are available. I'm just saying regardless of what goes down on the forums and the other ooc discussions still flowing freely, Pia will defend. It's who we are. Pia has also stepped up to become far more offensive (probably in more ways than one) to stir world rp/pvp up again. Let's all face it. It had pretty much died off. It breathed a bit of life when Steam was attacking frequently , then died down again. Now, it's reviving somewhat.

A long time rp/pvp guild lost most of their members due to the lack of world pvp. They've left the game or migrated to other servers. I'd like to revive it enough on cc to not only prevent the loss of more members, but also attract people interested in it.

The Wanted Posters, action reports etc were all Turncutt's ideas to encourage Horde to participate in world pvp.

Though I'd say your sex metaphor could be used better.

Meh, gave me an opportunity to say the s-e-x word.

Though I suppose the following survey applies to most men.

In a recent survey 90% of the women admitted they feel more uncomfortable undressing in front of other women than they do men. Women, they feel, are more critical and judgmental. Men are just grateful.

Appointments? Maybe not.

Communication? Probably a good idea.

Well, I'm still going to welcome the chance, spontaneous encounters. It really doesn't matter who wins or loses. It's something to stir the blood. Others may feel differently and that's fine. Thankfully we all feel comfortable having our own opinions and are comfortable enough here to share them.

Also, at the base, this issue is far from about A attacked B. After all, I don't think anyone here is discouraging RPPvP - we're trying to make sure it stays lively.

I just don't want this to turn into a habit where we have to worry about what kind of flak is going to happen on the forums after a world rp/pvp event. Life is stressful enough. A game shouldn't be.

And, once again. I want to thank Raoul the other night for not joining the attack when the three horde got me while I dozed. I'm fairly certain he was asked to join in when I called in reinforcements, but I certainly respect him trying to keep HG neutral at least for Pia and RT.

Salute to everyone who pvps here and to those who try to organize it. It's not easy.

Alright bear with me here...going to try and be constructive! I got to thinking a bit when I ran afk and came up with a few ideas. The issues (a tleast to me) seem to be mostly the following:

* RP-PVP during the horde's only real scheduled event

* Rage's wording in his IC letter to the horde.

* Unscheduled PVP not being able to drum up enough defense due to people being offline/busy

* Scheduled PVP having the problem of people seeming to be entrenched due to drumming up defense

There are probably a few more but in 5 hours I'll have been up 24 hours and my brain no worky gud.

As for the first one...the problem runs into people like to yammer and argue A LOT at the War Council and attacks give them things to do, on the other hand it happens to run smooth over the already established time put in place for the clinic which a lot of the defenders enjoy going to in order to RP.

My ideas on this were the following:

Either move the war council to sunday so the talk is followed by the normal PVP and it mushes into one event one day instead of one event split in two (which it essentially is) OR have a set start time for the PVP and a set end time for the PVP that stops before the clinic is scheduled to start. This accomplishes a few things and rolls into the other two bullet points so I will comment on that with those.

To schedule or not to schedule, that is the question. Both have their good and bad sides, but if folks are willing to work with it you can essentially have both in one. Set a date and time where the PVP will start and end and stick to it, yes this makes you predictable...which is why you add in a few other factors. You don't HAVE to actually go out and attack something during that time, it's just a "this is when it will happen if it happens" so the defenders have some sort of timeline to work with. you also don't have to name the location you are going to attack and in all fairness should not, be smart about it...use guile and deception. Icly leak information about an attack and smack something somewhere totally different but in the same breath don't make it too utterly hard on them or you'll end up two ships passing in the night firing at fog monsters.

As for Rage's commentary on razing everything...icly Rage is bug f-in nuts yo. Least I like to think so. He made that an ic letter and folks bluster and bluff, lie and deceive all day long icly. Respond to it as such, call him out. Challenge him, thump him about the skull (just not with any weapon you care to keep as it's a very HARD skull)

In short...please stop naming what's wrong and jumping each other...start thinking of how we can fix this and keep everyone happy.

04/04/2012 03:46 PMPosted by Sydancis

PS- we need a healer in our group. >:3

^

I also want to add...@Gentyl, I do want to state we didn't realize you were afk the other day until you dropped so quickly. But, in our defense, the leader of the Presidium was standing flagged and unguarded...for a small group of us planning on *going* the attack route, you just made a very tempting target.

I'm permaflagged as are most of my chars. You won't see me complaining about getting dropped. I only get irritated when people teabag us or corpse camp us, and even then I try not to take it to the forums. Regardless, even if I had been awake, with left arm broken and rotator cuff torn in right shoulder, I'm having a tough time pvping at all. If I answer an alarm it's basically to scout and offer a target. Even so, as I said, I'm permaflagged, if someone drops me they drop me. It's not a big deal. I'm just happy to see some people out and about attacking and, yes, you do need a healer.

/salute

04/04/2012 02:11 PMPosted by Eslyn

I can't recall a single attack during your RP evenings; and if it is being done, it's not by those who actively participate in the cross faction RP.

Not to totally jump in on an old post that's already been mostly addressed but I think this sentence right here is where the BIGGEST issue we're having is, so I wanted to quote it.

I can think of at least three times when Horde RPers not only attacked during Troubador Night but actually *attacked* Troubador Night. And the Clinic has AlSO been attacked at least twice (though I believe one of these was pre-planned). Maybe you didn't hear about it -- but that's because we're perfectly willing to "roll with the punches" so to speak. We may make mention of them if the events of the night are posted on the forums but we just say "this happened, this is how we reacted". We don't cause a ruckus about it, even on the occasions when we haven't been particularly happy about it OOC. It happened, we reacted -- that's RP for ya. There was no need for a thread like this.

I don't see why this has turned into an issue at all. One attack was made and, yes, Ragefang's post made it sound like a bloody massacre.... all of his do though, it's his personality. In my experience, he's ICly prone to being both bloodthirsty and hyperbolic -- which he was in this IC post. He's done this time and time again in almost every single one of his various declarations of war against the Horde.

Now, as has been pointed out several times, Pia *always* tries to defend when the alarm sounds. I know about half of our guild has the World Defense channel up. We always respond ICly too, which is what Ragefang did. The attack he responded to was not done by RPers but since he responded to it, he made it part of his RP. Truthfully, this sort of behavior is actually quite popular with a lot of PvPers and I'm more than happy to bridge the gap between the RP and PvP communities with it.

So, I guess I'm just confused with why this is an issue at all?

It sounds to me like there's only one night Horde doesn't want to be attacked on, and that's Tuesday. Not too difficult to schedule around that, so quit your whining. ;P

As for people attacking the Alliance clinics--yes, it's happened. I believe twice, maybe more. I remember healing one of them.

And it sounds like Horde doesn't mind their own clinic being attacked. It's just the matter of OTHER places getting attacked DURING the clinic, which then forces the tiny Horde RP community to get even tinier to have a showing to both events. And when it's PvP, those numbers matter. That goes into the realm of believability--maybe Horde forces WERE preoccupied ICly...but what about all those NPC defenders who could probably deliver a fair counter-attack of their own were the WoW world truly representative? You could round and round in circles about that...so best just to leave it be and do no attacks during the 3-hour-or-so window when the Horde is holding its clinic. 6:30 onward I think the timing is?

As for scheduled vs. un-scheduled PvP...I say both! The scheduled PvP will need more tactics and gearing up for the Alliance side (oh no, Alliance, you got to work together!), and the unscheduled PvP will need more defense-channel watching from the Horde (ew, WTB more channel slots..), but if RP-PvP is really a good thing to work towards, those shouldn't be a problem.

All right. Speaking on my own behalf here, and no one else's, and as someone who participated in some of the PVP last night, let me say the following about the following topics.

-Random PVP
I plan to engage in a lot of random PVP around the world, and that's exactly what I did last night. I did leave the attack on the Undercity out of respect for the Horde's concerns, but everything in Twilight Highlands and Arathi was what followed a response to WorldDefense pings from Twilight Shore. I certainly hold no specific group of people responsible for responding to me, and I don't think less of anyone who chooses RP over PVP.

-Random PVP as a tactic to avoid failure in organized PVP.
I don't endorse this idea. There obviously shouldn't be realID cheating or metagaming in respect to PVP events, but random PVP should not be viewed as a solution to legitimate organized PVP losses. The solution is to gear up, and if anyone Alliance side needs help in doing that, you need only let me know.

-"We burned down <insert town here>"
While Blizzard can't write on every little detail, they do have the sole responsibility for the reporting of material events. We cannot assert that our characters have changed the world, or have initiated significant events.

-PVP during events
Unless events are being crashed, I don't see why anyone should have to seek someone else's approval for random PVP, other RP events, or anything of the sort. You certainly don't have to respond if you don't want to (and on the other side of that, no one should think less of anyone who chooses to participate in an RP event rather than PVP). There was certainly nothing wrong with informing us that you wouldn't be able to respond either. What I took issue with was the hostility that was packaged with it, including theories that we planned to disrupt the event, calls for boycotts, and assorted accusations and vilifications.

Look. I'm not going to bother with the bickering back and forth anymore. It's clearly not going anywhere. Here's bottom line:

The active and semi-organized Horde rp community simply doesn't have the numbers to support what the larger Alliance rp community seems to want. If the Alliance simply wants to destroy towns, they can certainly do that. Splitting Horde events and scattering people around is no way to encourage rp in such a small thing. If you want to attack Clinic, great. We'll have some fun with it. If you want to attack somewhere else during Clinic? Well go ahead. We're (Razortalons) not going to do anything about it. Some other RP guild can take up the defense.