I vote we all stop playing Alliance altogether.
That is the most agreeable thing you've said so far.
OOC: Guild Meetings Are Important
I think I'm beginning to see why Wyrmrest Accord has no real unified RP community. They don't have anything approximating an Alliance or Horde OOC channel to coordinate RP events; any coordination they have is loose at best, and often takes place through impromptu RP (lots of their Alliance RP tends to happen in the Cathedral District in Stormwind, or did when I was there last), through their realm forum or through their realm website.
I spent two years there, having moved there when Wrath of the Lich King launched, as free transfers off Cenarion Circle were at the time being offered, and I was upset with the log-in queues CC was experiencing at the time. I figured a new realm was the way to alleviate that.
I came back to Cenarion Circle shortly before Cataclysm launched, having left WrA because I didn't want to deal with the folks whose guild I was in (and which I voluntarily left after learning the hard lesson that it's never wise to have a guild led by a real-life couple). I was pleased to find most of the RP guilds who were in existence when I initially left CC were still around.
As I said, though, I think I'm beginning to see why their approach to RP works. And that kind of makes me sad.
I think there's an issue being argued here that goes even beyond basic courtesy amongst RPers. Since I didn't see a reasonable solution to the issue when I considered it on my own, I chose to stop permaflagging. The issue is whether it's 100% appropriate, as a respect issue (and not as an issue of technical rules) to attack someone flagged no matter what.
There are any number of situations where someone might be flagged without actually intending to RP. They could have been unflagged and queued up for a battleground while out farming; the BG pops, they go in, and when they shunted back to their location after it's over, they're still flagged, and out in the world. They may not want to PvP at that point. There are, of course, options available to them (like hearthing), but just because those options are available doesn't mean they should feel compelled to take them in order to avoid running afoul of someone from the opposing faction.
Maybe a solution is for Blizzard to let people who unflag on non-PvP realms do so immediately as long as they aren't in a PvP area (Wintergrasp, Tol Barad, the outdoor PvP objectives in Outland), in an opposing faction's city (or town; you're auto-flagged now even if you aren't attacking, but a guard attacks you; it even extends to a guard taking a bow shot at you as you fly over enemy territory), or other similar "act of war" arrangement. Maybe an intelligent system like that is beyond the current technical capabilities of Blizzard's servers.
To argue that someone who's flagged is, whether they want to be or not, an automatic target is a polite way of saying, "If it's red (or yellow), it's dead". That logic holds true on a PvP realm. I don't know if it does (or if it even should) on an RP or Normal realm. Then again, it probably isn't an issue on a Normal realm, as they don't put as much effort into community as RP realms do, or not in the same fashion.
To my undertanding in this particular instance, Pia Presidium was gathered in an area generally acknowledged by many on both factions as "neutral ground". The game's mechanics support this: Tirion's people will attack you regardless of your faction if you initiate violence inside Hearthglen. They aren't much of a threat to a geared 85, but they'll still try.
The initial complaint (and I personally think it's a valid one) was it's in poor taste to attack a guild meeting, and it should be perceived as generally obvious when it's a guild meeting. If I see a lot of Pia Presidium gathered in Hearthglen in the same room, I'm going to conclude a guild meeting is happening. If I see a lot of the First Stormwind Regiment gathered in the War Room in Stormwind Keep, I'm going to conclude a guild meeting is occurring.
My guild, with its upcoming new tweak to its concept, is going to be moving into Light's Hope Chapel. If you see, down the line, several Ebon Sanction gathered there, you can likely conclude a guild meeting is happening. I'd use Acherus, but IC, it's for Death Knights only, and my guild isn't only for Death Knights. I don't see that someone who isn't a Death Knight has much reason to be in Acherus, and in terms of the story, would have no ability to enter to begin with if they didn't have a Deathgate opened for them by a Knight of the Ebon Blade.
I suppose, then, what's really being argued is whether it's acceptable to act from some iteration of "If it's red it's dead" no matter what. I think I come down on the side of "It usually is, but there are times when it isn't."
It sounds to me like that's what Cray is saying as well. When coming up against those who don't agree with that approach, if they force the issue, they've taken power out of other players' hands.
I spent two years there, having moved there when Wrath of the Lich King launched, as free transfers off Cenarion Circle were at the time being offered, and I was upset with the log-in queues CC was experiencing at the time. I figured a new realm was the way to alleviate that.
I came back to Cenarion Circle shortly before Cataclysm launched, having left WrA because I didn't want to deal with the folks whose guild I was in (and which I voluntarily left after learning the hard lesson that it's never wise to have a guild led by a real-life couple). I was pleased to find most of the RP guilds who were in existence when I initially left CC were still around.
As I said, though, I think I'm beginning to see why their approach to RP works. And that kind of makes me sad.
I think there's an issue being argued here that goes even beyond basic courtesy amongst RPers. Since I didn't see a reasonable solution to the issue when I considered it on my own, I chose to stop permaflagging. The issue is whether it's 100% appropriate, as a respect issue (and not as an issue of technical rules) to attack someone flagged no matter what.
There are any number of situations where someone might be flagged without actually intending to RP. They could have been unflagged and queued up for a battleground while out farming; the BG pops, they go in, and when they shunted back to their location after it's over, they're still flagged, and out in the world. They may not want to PvP at that point. There are, of course, options available to them (like hearthing), but just because those options are available doesn't mean they should feel compelled to take them in order to avoid running afoul of someone from the opposing faction.
Maybe a solution is for Blizzard to let people who unflag on non-PvP realms do so immediately as long as they aren't in a PvP area (Wintergrasp, Tol Barad, the outdoor PvP objectives in Outland), in an opposing faction's city (or town; you're auto-flagged now even if you aren't attacking, but a guard attacks you; it even extends to a guard taking a bow shot at you as you fly over enemy territory), or other similar "act of war" arrangement. Maybe an intelligent system like that is beyond the current technical capabilities of Blizzard's servers.
To argue that someone who's flagged is, whether they want to be or not, an automatic target is a polite way of saying, "If it's red (or yellow), it's dead". That logic holds true on a PvP realm. I don't know if it does (or if it even should) on an RP or Normal realm. Then again, it probably isn't an issue on a Normal realm, as they don't put as much effort into community as RP realms do, or not in the same fashion.
To my undertanding in this particular instance, Pia Presidium was gathered in an area generally acknowledged by many on both factions as "neutral ground". The game's mechanics support this: Tirion's people will attack you regardless of your faction if you initiate violence inside Hearthglen. They aren't much of a threat to a geared 85, but they'll still try.
The initial complaint (and I personally think it's a valid one) was it's in poor taste to attack a guild meeting, and it should be perceived as generally obvious when it's a guild meeting. If I see a lot of Pia Presidium gathered in Hearthglen in the same room, I'm going to conclude a guild meeting is happening. If I see a lot of the First Stormwind Regiment gathered in the War Room in Stormwind Keep, I'm going to conclude a guild meeting is occurring.
My guild, with its upcoming new tweak to its concept, is going to be moving into Light's Hope Chapel. If you see, down the line, several Ebon Sanction gathered there, you can likely conclude a guild meeting is happening. I'd use Acherus, but IC, it's for Death Knights only, and my guild isn't only for Death Knights. I don't see that someone who isn't a Death Knight has much reason to be in Acherus, and in terms of the story, would have no ability to enter to begin with if they didn't have a Deathgate opened for them by a Knight of the Ebon Blade.
I suppose, then, what's really being argued is whether it's acceptable to act from some iteration of "If it's red it's dead" no matter what. I think I come down on the side of "It usually is, but there are times when it isn't."
It sounds to me like that's what Cray is saying as well. When coming up against those who don't agree with that approach, if they force the issue, they've taken power out of other players' hands.
And also where it says:
If this does not sound like an appealing gameplay experience, it is strongly recommended that you select a Player versus Environment (PvE) realm.
Right there. It implies it, yes. Implied in that is the notion that instead of having no choice, where you can be attacked anywhere at any time, you are now empowered with the choice as to whether to consent to PvP or nay.
But if you don't believe it, I tell you what...flag up, stick your tail out there where I can fill it with frostbolts and you can report me every time I do it. $100 says I never see so much as an email from Blizzard regarding it.
EDIT: For clarification above, it may actually be most accurate for me to say that your choices are temporary consent to PvP (PvE server) or permanent consent to PvP (PvP server). In both cases there are consent. I did actually try, but failed, to find generic PvP policy regarding all realms but was left to assume that that article was supposed to cover it too. I think you'll find if you dig around the in-game Help menu though, that it just flat-out says "PvP-related complaints will be ignored" (paraphrased).
06/04/2012 01:16 PMPosted by CrayauchtinHang out in any good OOC channels lately?
Nope. Can't stand the whining.
06/04/2012 01:16 PMPosted by CrayauchtinSo, uhm, just to clarify... by definition, a community is a group of people who share something in common. It could be geography, religion, ethnicity... improvisational acting and storytelling in a video game. Oh... see what I did there? :P
Yes, the word-twisting was very cute. The point still stands, however, that me being a role-player doesn't mean I am in accord with you. Actually that's a good thing because a story without conflict is so very very dull.
06/04/2012 01:16 PMPosted by CrayauchtinBut what I'm getting so far is.... "We want you to be courteous to our RP events because there's more of you but we don't want to be courteous at all because we're Horde and that's what we do."
I don't represent the Horde community. Draw whatever inference you want from the others, but I'm just the Great and All-Powerful Jyocses. If you don't like the frostbolts, throw up your blue shield. My spells have yet to find a way to penetrate that defense.
Edited by Jyocses on 6/4/2012 1:45 PM PDT
You are...really grasping at straws now. I didn't want to respond to this drama but I can't stand to see people demonized over such BS. Hyperbole without any sense of irony isn't going to win people to your side on this. The people who are going to agree with you will already nod and justify you but this is getting kind of embarrassing.
None of this warranted a post like this or any sort of drama. Don't let momentary anger make a fool of yourself (as we have all done, from time to time). Well, guess it really isn't *momentary* since this thread is now four pages long and your arguments are becoming increasingly absurd. Not trying to be patronizing, I am sincerely trying to understand where you are coming from and the responses just come off as increasingly desperate. Take a step back maybe, and try to see the situation in a more impersonal manner.
None of this warranted a post like this or any sort of drama. Don't let momentary anger make a fool of yourself (as we have all done, from time to time). Well, guess it really isn't *momentary* since this thread is now four pages long and your arguments are becoming increasingly absurd. Not trying to be patronizing, I am sincerely trying to understand where you are coming from and the responses just come off as increasingly desperate. Take a step back maybe, and try to see the situation in a more impersonal manner.
06/04/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Jyocsesyou are now empowered with the choice as to whether to consent to PvP or nay.
Unless your non-PvP event is interrupted by PvP. I've acknowledged I didn't have to attack back, yes... and you seem to still be insisting that it would not also have been disruptive for me to just sit there while you PvPed to your hearts content.
Because someone is not PvPing does not mean that PvP is not disruptive to them.
06/04/2012 01:35 PMPosted by JyocsesYes, the word-twisting was very cute.
Thanks! I try.
The point still stands, however, that me being a role-player doesn't mean I am in accord with you. Actually that's a good thing because a story without conflict is so very very dull.
Since you're insisting that you're an RPer.
Some notes on RPing in WoW... some basic knowledge of lore is useful. Because, you see, in the lore Hearthglen is neutral ground now that Tirion has reclaimed it. Neutral ground where Horde/Alliance violence would not be permitted by the Argent Crusade -- hence why the NPCs attack if you initiate said violence. ICly, attacking there makes no sense.
I'm not trying to be a lore hound here and force it down your throat, I'm just pointing out... now you're trying to make this IC so it will be at least somewhat defensible and I'm just saying... try harder. You've been nothing but discourteous to me (even though you weren't even remotely part of this discussion while we all thought you were a PvPer), so don't expect me to jump in and try to help you out. You're RPing in Azeroth so RP in Azeroth.
(And, in slightly more obscure lore, given that Tirion did not abandon the high elves as he had been banished before that and become a hermit, and has since adamantly refused to join the Alliance which is why he's neutral.... I would say it's highly unreasonable for an elf driven by such prejudices as you've described to be at Hearthglen looking to violate his laws in his land by inciting violence. But it's your character, I'm just sayin'...)
And, no, I don't expect all RPers to agree on everything. That doesn't make them any less a part of the RP community. That's why discussions like this can be useful, helping to make the RP smoother in the future. Helping to make people aware of what might be going on in other people's heads.
See, a story without conflict would be dull. But that doesn't mean we need to create OOC conflict, because there's plenty of IC conflit to begin with. If you're bored with your story, maybe try connecting with someone to create some IC conflict and make it exciting, instead of randomly attacking people who don't even know you're an RPer let alone that you're IC. That will help your story, I'm pretty sure.
06/04/2012 01:49 PMPosted by AzielYou are...really grasping at straws now. I didn't want to respond to this drama but I can't stand to see people demonized over such BS.
I'm really not demonizing all that much. I would still like to know what else our guild meeting could have been viewed as...
Hyperbole without any sense of irony isn't going to win people to your side on this. The people who are going to agree with you will already nod and justify you but this is getting kind of embarrassing.
Aziel. Look at this thread.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4365747615
Horde players -- some of whom are the same ones saying I'm being ridiculous -- are asking for courtesy. They want RP-PvP to be prearranged or at least discussed. Yes, it gets a little heated. But at the end -- tadah! A compromise is met, and we've agreed on some things that are and are not courteous.
I'm asking for people to be polite. It's not unreasonable. We've done it before.
But no one on the Hord
I am sincerely trying to understand where you are coming from
I've explained where I'm coming from repeatedly, but one more time in excruciating detail because I like you.
We had an impromtu IC guild meeting in HG.
One person arrived, unflagged. Summoned everyone. One person was flagged -- Gentyl. We all went into the town hall into the third room and sat down. We began to speak in /say. I think maybe three things got said. An undead rogue who is an RPer materializes and starts attacking Gen (who is on the opposite side of the room from the door). Then a belf frost mage (who is apparently also an RPer though we didn't know that) joins in.
We had not even been in our guild meeting for five minutes so even if Gen had unflagged, it would not have dropped yet.
We have two options: let Gentyl die as many times as these two feel like killing her or kill them. Either way, our event has been thoroughly disrupted.
Third option, retrospectively, would have been for our entire guild to wait five minutes before we had our event.
Now, all I'm wondering is why it is MORE courteous for the roughly dozen of us to do that than it is for the two people to not attack someone? That's my only question.
Edited by Crayauchtin on 6/4/2012 2:07 PM PDT
06/04/2012 01:51 PMPosted by Crayauchtinso don't expect me to jump in and try to help you out.
Don't worry, sweety. I never did.
06/04/2012 01:51 PMPosted by Crayauchtin(And, in slightly more obscure lore, given that Tirion did not abandon the high elves as he had been banished before that and become a hermit, and has since adamantly refused to join the Alliance which is why he's neutral.... I would say it's highly unreasonable for an elf driven by such prejudices as you've described to be at Hearthglen looking to violate his laws in his land by inciting violence. But it's your character, I'm just sayin'...)
Sucks to be human. Prejudice is a real evil. It can also be a virtual one.
06/04/2012 01:51 PMPosted by CrayauchtinBut that doesn't mean we need to create OOC conflict
Such sweet irony.
After reading all of this, there isn't much I can add except to shake my head at some of the remarks here. I am of the mind that if you don't want to invite PvP, don't flag up. If you do perma-flag, perhaps you should unflag about five minutes before a guild meeting or anywhere you don't want to be bothered by PvP? Kind of why we request everyone to unflag for fishing.
Perhaps not everyone has gotten the memo on what constitutes neutral territory beyond the word 'Sanctuary' popping up on one's screen. Just because there's an arrangement between a few guilds doesn't mean everyone on both sides knows it. Maybe even start a thread with a discussion on which areas can be considered neutral and which ones would be great for a throw-down? That sounds like something constructive, as opposed to the 'he-said, she-said' going on.
'It should have been obvious we were at a guild meeting!' Okay, I'll concede that point. I wasn't there, maybe it should have been obvious that it was a guild meeting instead of say, an IC guild gathering to hear a lecture on the proper uses of the Light or something? This is one type of case you can blame game mechanics on. I do kind of wish we could all speak the same language. I've seen it elsewhere, and it was amazing how quickly problems like this could get smoothed over! It also really fostered RP as well as PvP, which was fun. But that's neither here not there at this point.
And please don't start with the 'hey, we didn't know you were an RPer until just now' to someone. If you don't play the opposite faction a lot, you may not know who the RPers are. Or they could be a new person to the server you haven't met yet. It doesn't add anything to the topic at hand.
Perhaps not everyone has gotten the memo on what constitutes neutral territory beyond the word 'Sanctuary' popping up on one's screen. Just because there's an arrangement between a few guilds doesn't mean everyone on both sides knows it. Maybe even start a thread with a discussion on which areas can be considered neutral and which ones would be great for a throw-down? That sounds like something constructive, as opposed to the 'he-said, she-said' going on.
'It should have been obvious we were at a guild meeting!' Okay, I'll concede that point. I wasn't there, maybe it should have been obvious that it was a guild meeting instead of say, an IC guild gathering to hear a lecture on the proper uses of the Light or something? This is one type of case you can blame game mechanics on. I do kind of wish we could all speak the same language. I've seen it elsewhere, and it was amazing how quickly problems like this could get smoothed over! It also really fostered RP as well as PvP, which was fun. But that's neither here not there at this point.
And please don't start with the 'hey, we didn't know you were an RPer until just now' to someone. If you don't play the opposite faction a lot, you may not know who the RPers are. Or they could be a new person to the server you haven't met yet. It doesn't add anything to the topic at hand.
The snide attempt at attacking someones RP knowledge and ability isn't helping you.
Grasping at straws, digging your metaphorical grave; maybe best to turn the metaphorical ship around, as its rather ragged and heading straight for a maelstrom?
Grasping at straws, digging your metaphorical grave; maybe best to turn the metaphorical ship around, as its rather ragged and heading straight for a maelstrom?
Edited by Aziel on 6/4/2012 2:05 PM PDT
06/04/2012 01:59 PMPosted by BhayneAnd please don't start with the 'hey, we didn't know you were an RPer until just now' to someone.
I didn't mean that as a criticism -- I just meant we didn't know. We'd been assuming only one RPer had attacked us. Apparently it was two. It doesn't change anything, really, it's just that we didn't know.
06/04/2012 02:00 PMPosted by AzielThe snide attempt at attacking someones RP knowledge and ability isn't helping you.
No, but everyone seems to think the neutrality of HG is just between a few guilds. RT and Pia have worked it out in some specifics since we both live there, but the neutrality in general is lore. The idea that this is defensible if it was actually IC is cool and I agree -- but I don't see how it could be IC is my point -- at least not without some discussion that has obviously not taken place.
Btw, I edited my post to address your earlier question of trying to understand where I'm coming from.
But the main question is: why is it more considerate for a group of people to go out of their way to avoid this sort of thing than just one or two people? Every time I ask that question I get attacked and that leaves me to believe I'm not the one becoming desperate -- that leaves me to think no one wants to admit that this really was something rude to do. But as I said, we're not looking for blame we're just trying to make this happen less in the future.
Edited by Crayauchtin on 6/4/2012 2:17 PM PDT
Fun fact: My own character doesn't care about them and would gladly kill them if the game gave us an option. It was one reason we didn't use it for an RP attack/event we were doing, since none of them could go hostile...do you think a warlock cares what a paladin says?
Also, you keep quoting people but never seem to actually answer anything they say.
Also, you keep quoting people but never seem to actually answer anything they say.
Edited by Aziel on 6/4/2012 2:28 PM PDT
Were Jyocses a court wizard or someone else working in Horde politics, I'd be inclined to agree with you, Cray.
But she's a mentally unstable, borderline-Wretched mana addict who can jump from hot to cold at the flick of a switch (which is broken). No one wants her in politics in the first place and luckily for her, she isn't inclined to care about it either. If anything, her political ideology revolves around destroying the weak and establishing her megalomaniacal dominance.
She is best suited in the battlefields, which is where she often ends up. The only requirement there is that you hate the enemy (check) and have the power to destroy them (check). Which she more than gleefully does.
Sound like a terrible character concept to you?
I'm not going to pretend her character is founded upon some great desire for quiet role-play. It's fueled entirely by a desire to create something that has a reason to go to war. And you needn't look too deep into the ranks of Lluchduu Ocheliad to find more diabolical and even less socialized characters.
At least Jyocses doesn't continually destroy her own people or harbor those who do and get off scott-free, every time. That would be rather unbelievable to me.
But she's a mentally unstable, borderline-Wretched mana addict who can jump from hot to cold at the flick of a switch (which is broken). No one wants her in politics in the first place and luckily for her, she isn't inclined to care about it either. If anything, her political ideology revolves around destroying the weak and establishing her megalomaniacal dominance.
She is best suited in the battlefields, which is where she often ends up. The only requirement there is that you hate the enemy (check) and have the power to destroy them (check). Which she more than gleefully does.
Sound like a terrible character concept to you?
I'm not going to pretend her character is founded upon some great desire for quiet role-play. It's fueled entirely by a desire to create something that has a reason to go to war. And you needn't look too deep into the ranks of Lluchduu Ocheliad to find more diabolical and even less socialized characters.
At least Jyocses doesn't continually destroy her own people or harbor those who do and get off scott-free, every time. That would be rather unbelievable to me.
And please don't start with the 'hey, we didn't know you were an RPer until just now' to someone.
I didn't mean that as a criticism -- I just meant we didn't know. We'd been assuming only one RPer had attacked us. Apparently it was two. It doesn't change anything, really, it's just that we didn't know.The snide attempt at attacking someones RP knowledge and ability isn't helping you.
No, but everyone seems to think the neutrality of HG is just between a few guilds. RT and Pia have worked it out in some specifics since we both live there, but the neutrality in general is lore. The idea that this is defensible if it was actually IC is cool and I agree -- but I don't see how it could be IC is my point -- at least not without some discussion that has obviously not taken place.
Btw, I edited my post to address your earlier question of trying to understand where I'm coming from.
But the main question is: why is it more considerate for a group of people to go out of their way to avoid this sort of thing than just one or two people? Every time I ask that question I get attacked and that leaves me to believe I'm not the one becoming desperate -- that leaves me to think no one wants to admit that this really was something rude to do. But as I said, we're not looking for blame we're just trying to make this happen less in the future.
See, right there in your post: RT and Pia worked it out. Great, good to know. Yes, by lore it is technically neutral ground, but that doesn't mean RP characters are beholden to that. Not everyone is going to agree with Tirion and his mission. RP would be boring if we all agreed 100% of the time!
Edited: Sorry to quote the whole post, but I'm typing one-handed!
Edited by Bhayne on 6/4/2012 3:11 PM PDT
You are expecting consideration from people who clearly have no interest in being considerate. Why are you not getting this? They COULD stop, but they clearly WON'T and have /no intention of doing so./ For some bizarre reason you seem to not want to accept this and just keep asking 'WHY ARE THEY BEING SO INCONSIDERATE?!' and not grasping at the basic fact that they have no desire to be considerate. Do you ask a robber why it is they're robbing you? No. No, you don't.
4 pages in, however, I'm thinking this is what it comes down to about the whole flagging thing and any drama that ever arises from cross-faction anything from Pia.
Everyone. I have a little bit of information for you. It may come as a surprise.
GENTYL DOES WHAT GENTYL WANTS(And by association, Pia, and then Imperon when he decides to tries to Godwin and inevitably fails), and she's gonna keep doing it and when people don't respond the way she wants, it'll end up in drama, so as amusing as this thread is let's just all accept that or this is going to end up a 10+ page thread with people refusing to accept basic truths. People can be jerks. Some people don't care about the affect of their actions on you. Was Ra a jerk? Probably. Honestly, I don't really care. People bring Kod to RP-PVP things and we laugh Hordeside about it because he takes the cake in PVP non-etiquette with us, but you aren't going to see any of us going to the forums about it. From what I can tell, things were completely blown out of proportion, in any case. Gentyl could have chosen to flag down, but didn't. Guess what? It's the SAME CHOICE he could have made to stop, but didn't!
Also, as a note on the whole Tuesday night PVP-RP 'spectacle,' please don't skew facts so much and act like a bunch of Horde suddenly came on screaming about what happened. All they did was come on to tell people that if Alliance choose to hit cities on Tuesday nights during Clinic, they likely will not get much of a response because they will choose to RP over PVP. That's it. Other people took it as something else and decided to run away and make a huge fuss about it, and it wasn't from any of the Horde.
4 pages in, however, I'm thinking this is what it comes down to about the whole flagging thing and any drama that ever arises from cross-faction anything from Pia.
Everyone. I have a little bit of information for you. It may come as a surprise.
GENTYL DOES WHAT GENTYL WANTS(And by association, Pia, and then Imperon when he decides to tries to Godwin and inevitably fails), and she's gonna keep doing it and when people don't respond the way she wants, it'll end up in drama, so as amusing as this thread is let's just all accept that or this is going to end up a 10+ page thread with people refusing to accept basic truths. People can be jerks. Some people don't care about the affect of their actions on you. Was Ra a jerk? Probably. Honestly, I don't really care. People bring Kod to RP-PVP things and we laugh Hordeside about it because he takes the cake in PVP non-etiquette with us, but you aren't going to see any of us going to the forums about it. From what I can tell, things were completely blown out of proportion, in any case. Gentyl could have chosen to flag down, but didn't. Guess what? It's the SAME CHOICE he could have made to stop, but didn't!
Also, as a note on the whole Tuesday night PVP-RP 'spectacle,' please don't skew facts so much and act like a bunch of Horde suddenly came on screaming about what happened. All they did was come on to tell people that if Alliance choose to hit cities on Tuesday nights during Clinic, they likely will not get much of a response because they will choose to RP over PVP. That's it. Other people took it as something else and decided to run away and make a huge fuss about it, and it wasn't from any of the Horde.
06/04/2012 03:04 PMPosted by GenrowFrom what I can see, Jyocses at this point is just trying to come up with excuse upon excuse for being unnecessarily disruptive and has been more than willing to twist the wording of rules to suit her malicious intent. In conclusion, I hypothesise that she's, in fact, not a roleplayer like she said, but is instead just a troll, doing nothing but trying to stir up as much drama as possible. Even going so far as to use "insanity" as an excuse to make OOC actions appear IC.
Hmm, you must have very different eyes from me. They sound perfectly logically and at this point, rightfully annoyed when people make snide comments about their RP or RP abilities?
I assume you came here with a preconceived notion of who was right and who was wrong?
06/04/2012 03:04 PMPosted by GenrowFrom what I can see, Jyocses at this point is just trying to come up with excuse upon excuse for being unnecessarily disruptive and has been more than willing to twist the wording of rules to suit her malicious intent. In conclusion, I hypothesise that she's, in fact, not a roleplayer like she said, but is instead just a troll, doing nothing but trying to stir up as much drama as possible. Even going so far as to use "insanity" as an excuse to make OOC actions appear IC.
I decided to extend the invitation to RP with Genrow but it was declined with silence, until I pressed the issue. The conversation went like this:
15:20:42 To [Genrow]: Want to RP?
Silence.
15:24:22 To [Genrow]: It's ok if you don't want to. But don't say I don't RP when you don't know me. More than happy to anytime, anywhere, when I feel invited.
15:24:55 [Genrow] whispers: When you disconnect yourself from the RP community, don't expect people to automatically know you are a part of it.
15:26:56 To [Genrow] Generally they are the ones doing the disconnection. Try RP'ing with them if they don't know you. It's a pretty alienating experience.
15:27:25 [Genrow] whispers: They seem pretty receptive to me, even when I reroll a new name.
15:27:40 To [Genrow]: Guess we've had a different experience.
15:30:24 To [Genrow]: Anyway, the invitation to RP stands, if/when you ever choose to take it.
Silence.
Action begets believability to me. I could far more easily call you a non-RP'er and a troll really. If you really want your role-play to be an open experience, you need to open up. I role-play with ANYONE who role-plays with me ANY TIME. But if you don't look like you want to RP with me, I do disconnect, because I assume you don't want to--which has often been my experience Alliance-side, frankly, and I know so so many people who have felt the same.
Don't assume just because I said my character is a crazy mana addict that she doesn't have a personality. She has a good deal of thought in her, really, especially for a character I'm not too serious about. You may not like her self-absorbed megalomaniac tendencies and how much doting she does on her familiar, but that's the character. And any RP you agree to do with me will develop the character further--and likely yours too.
Thank you. I wish you had told me that. I would never have made that post. Maybe I will see you at some function in the future and we can RP then.
I...
I'm reading all of this today, and am sitting here kinda dumbfounded at the whole situation being blown out of proportion and escalated from a simple "someone forgot (or was simply unwilling) to unflag, and someone else took advantage of what is commonly seen by the majority of players as the indicator as willingness to be attacked in PvP.".
Amusingly, I see some objections to the attack of a guild meeting coming from the self-same people who, when informed there were requests from horde RPers not to attack them during their (at the time) single weekly RP event, replied "hell no, we'll continue to do whatever we want". Welcome to Karma, people.
Honestly, I'm getting tired of the horde/alliance OOC squabbling on this server. Far too many of you seem to think players on the the other side are your OOC enemy, instead of simply keeping it in-game. Oh, and look at that word:"Game". A lot of you seem to forget that part too. If it happens in-game, try and keep it in-game, and don't assume it's a direct personal attack on you as a player (because light knows there's enough of that happening on this server without overreacting OOCly to in-game events too). We make in-game decisions which may or may not be wise. We suffer the consequences for those decisions in-game. Lets not keep dragging the reaction to that into OOC...
I'm reading all of this today, and am sitting here kinda dumbfounded at the whole situation being blown out of proportion and escalated from a simple "someone forgot (or was simply unwilling) to unflag, and someone else took advantage of what is commonly seen by the majority of players as the indicator as willingness to be attacked in PvP.".
Amusingly, I see some objections to the attack of a guild meeting coming from the self-same people who, when informed there were requests from horde RPers not to attack them during their (at the time) single weekly RP event, replied "hell no, we'll continue to do whatever we want". Welcome to Karma, people.
Honestly, I'm getting tired of the horde/alliance OOC squabbling on this server. Far too many of you seem to think players on the the other side are your OOC enemy, instead of simply keeping it in-game. Oh, and look at that word:"Game". A lot of you seem to forget that part too. If it happens in-game, try and keep it in-game, and don't assume it's a direct personal attack on you as a player (because light knows there's enough of that happening on this server without overreacting OOCly to in-game events too). We make in-game decisions which may or may not be wise. We suffer the consequences for those decisions in-game. Lets not keep dragging the reaction to that into OOC...
06/04/2012 03:10 PMPosted by BhayneYes, by lore it is technically neutral ground, but that doesn't mean RP characters are beholden to that.
No, but to be there intentionally to start violence is the sort of thing that would require some sort of IC justification. Being insane and prejudice is a justification -- I still think the timing was super inconsiderate but I'm willing to say, now that I actually know something about the character, that I can see it. But since I'm not trying to place blame but am trying to get people not to do this in the future, that's not really all that important as opposed to someone saying "Y'know, I get what you're saying and from now on if I see a guild group together and only one person is flagged maybe I'll wait five minutes and see if the flag drops before I attack." It's not unreasonable.
06/04/2012 03:12 PMPosted by RowanneGENTYL DOES WHAT GENTYL WANTS
See, now, still missing the point that even if Gentyl HAD dropped flag it wouldn't have gone down yet.
Also missing the point that Gentyl is not the one with the problem here, at all, and has expressed that. And the personal attacks on her are for serious trolling (if you were looking for an example Genrow, there it is!)
06/04/2012 03:12 PMPosted by RowanneAll they did was come on to tell people that if Alliance choose to hit cities on Tuesday nights during Clinic, they likely will not get much of a response because they will choose to RP over PVP. That's it. Other people took it as something else and decided to run away and make a huge fuss about it, and it wasn't from any of the Horde.
Have you seen the thread? http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4365747615? The people posting in there with a red background behind their picture? They're Horde.
As for the reason the Tuesday night thing keeps getting brought up -- if you looked at the thread, there is heated bickering but it eventually died down and led to an agreement. Now the thing of it is, one of the people involved in that discussion is -- and I'm sorry Dimitri but it actually is kind of relevant so I'm gonna point a finger -- an alt of the undead rogue who attacked Gentyl to begin with.
04/04/2012 02:25 PMPosted by RaoulIts just bad form to hold an IC event when another IC event is going on, be it PvP related or not. That's what this is about.
In fact, that IS bad form -- as in, it's rude. Which is what I'm saying here too.
And if we can be asked to curb our attacks -- even by just a few people -- to be more courteous to the Horde, I see no reason why I can't ask the same.
06/04/2012 03:52 PMPosted by JyocsesAnd any RP you agree to do with me will develop the character further--and likely yours too.
I think my alt Gruzzexl would like your character a lot and if you don't mind how low a level he is (it turns out, I hate playing casters. Oops.) and how slow my typing is (unless it becomes illegibly full of typos. Shakey hands.)
Edited by Crayauchtin on 6/4/2012 5:12 PM PDT
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