World of Warcraft®

I don't want to see ZI's thread for recruiting for Arena/realm PvP derailed more than it's already been, and I think there's some valid concerns brought up in that thread which deserve legitimate discussion (if we can all agree to be civil to one another, and considerate of different perspectives/goals in the game). So bring it here, so we aren't derailing ZI's thread. I'd like to see some focused discussion on this, to be honest. Seems like a (polite) airing of grievances/concerns might be cathartic.

ZI's thread is here, and the derailings start on the latter part of page 2, just for reference:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5978117787

Have at it, Cenarion Circle, and be good to each other. I'll post more (if this thread takes off) at lunch; I'm at work. :P

Honestly, the derail seemed like the rather pointless reinforcement of a stereotype. There IS a difference between competitive PVPing and PKing, and the jerks tend to gravitate toward the latter.

It doesn't lend credibility to the RP community though if people from it just try to shoot down attempts to promote PVP. The same is true otherwise of course, but that doesn't mean that it should be emulated.

On a related note, I still need to join that channel...

It's not a matter of RP vs. PvP. As has been stated, plenty of people like to do both, sometimes even at the same time.

It's a matter of griefing one in favor of the other, which I have no tolerance for, and will never support someone who does such.

That's about as concisely as I can put it.

Red=dead is an excellent guideline in a purely PvP setting, but where RP is involved, it can be considered griefing since not everything with a red name is an enemy from an IC perspective.

For instance, some goblin RPers like to RP as a part of one of the neutral factions, such as the Steamwheedle Cartel.

Threading RP into things can be a bit tough when you run into characters who actually carry out a red=dead philosophy. This character for example believes that just about every member of the Horde wants to see out the extermination of her people, even the tauren. Thrall after all talked a good game, but still didn't lift a finger to stop the Warsong Clan when they returned to Ashenvale, so how is she supposed to take kind sentiments from anyone else seriously?

She is somewhat held back because of a rather arbitrary set of rules that I bring to bear in most PVP engagements, and because she doesn't want to do anything that will make her question her own actions, but if she encounters a member of the Horde, and that person is armed, they're fair game, and she considers it her duty to dispatch them, because after all: you can't trust their stated intentions.

That's just one example though. People play omnicidal maniacs, people whose morality probably matches Garithos, and then of course, when called on griefing an event, the griefers will always come up with a slapped-together IC excuse.

I don't want to see ZI's thread for recruiting for Arena/realm PvP derailed more than it's already been, and I think there's some valid concerns brought up in that thread which deserve legitimate discussion (if we can all agree to be civil to one another, and considerate of different perspectives/goals in the game). So bring it here, so we aren't derailing ZI's thread. I'd like to see some focused discussion on this, to be honest. Seems like a (polite) airing of grievances/concerns might be cathartic.

ZI's thread is here, and the derailings start on the latter part of page 2, just for reference:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5978117787

Have at it, Cenarion Circle, and be good to each other. I'll post more (if this thread takes off) at lunch; I'm at work. :P

Thanks for the support Rage, I like to see this from the CC community. I feel like a few people just jumped the gun and assumed that I was bringing elitist jerks back to CC, but in reality I'm trying to do the opposite. I'm trying to get a new generation of PvPers that can play well and not !@#$ talk constantly and speak down to other players like they're above CC. I've noticed that some few semi-high rated players think it's okay for them to speak down to this server as if they're too good to be on here, it kind of bothers me because almost everyone who has wanted to get better at PvP started at a below-average to average skill level.

...and then of course, when called on griefing an event, the griefers will always come up with a slapped-together IC excuse.

Or they try and blame the other side because the Hordies only had four or five to the twenty the Allys brought to the show.

07/10/2012 11:03 AMPosted by Sekhesmet

...and then of course, when called on griefing an event, the griefers will always come up with a slapped-together IC excuse.

Or they try and blame the other side because the Hordies only had four or five to the twenty the Allys brought to the show.

Not sure what you're referring to, but don't act like one side has any sort of monopoly on running from fair fights, or otherwise abusing an advantage in a noncompetitive manner. As much as I would like to believe that there is a spirit of competition, every attempt that I've made to test it has revealed otherwise. PVP therefore comes down to the resources that you can bring into the fight, and you should expect the other side to take full advantage of them, regardless of how unfair and uncompetitive that is.

Competitive PVP though, such as the type promoted in that thread, is a refreshing change, but you aren't going to see it in the world itself.

I think, for the most part, despite Sophie's bringing it up again and taking it even further off-topic, everyone had said pretty much what they had wanted to say.

Now it sounds like we're talking about the fairness of RPPvP, which doesn't seem to relate, really, either - or in the theoretical case Sek's describing, it sounds like, the fault of RPers inviting too many people, or non-RPers. You can't blame the people that show, after all, if they were invited. There's no way to -enforce- politeness and fairness in worldPvP, though it's nice to have, especially in planned events.

But, again, that's off-topic.

I think we've seen both sides of the argument, by now:

Side A: Zl has a history of griefing, and therefore there's latent distrust and bitter feelings.

Side B: Zl's stated publicly here that he'd like to apologize and turn over a new leaf. I'm not saying I believe him, or that I don't. It's irrelevant. The /only/ thing to do now is to wait and see if he, and his guild, stay true to their word. If it's another guild that does not tolerate griefing, despite not being RPers - there have been quite a few over the years - then no bad can come from it.

Frankly, it's getting pretty tiring seeing this !@#$ brought up ad nauseum. I suggest we simply wait and see, at least give them a /chance/ to act appropriately after they've made said promises before we get up in arms of every thread of theirs - believe me, I understand the want to not have your RP griefed. But they're aware. Promises have been made, let's see if they're stuck to. Maybe even try a bit of OOC communication in whispers beforehand if we want them to avoid a specific instance of worldPvP, as we want it to be RP-only. But we sure as hell aren't doing any favors for the server's reputation by keeping these threads bumped up on the front page - it looks bad for roleplayers /and/ PvPers.

Thanks for the support Rage, I like to see this from the CC community. I feel like a few people just jumped the gun and assumed that I was bringing elitist jerks back to CC, but in reality I'm trying to do the opposite. I'm trying to get a new generation of PvPers that can play well and not !@#$ talk constantly and speak down to other players like they're above CC. I've noticed that some few semi-high rated players think it's okay for them to speak down to this server as if they're too good to be on here, it kind of bothers me because almost everyone who has wanted to get better at PvP started at a below-average to average skill level.

Mind if I ask what was up with the whispers after that one fight near the bridge, then? It certainly came off as trash-talking and talking down to me, though perhaps we merely have different ideas of what constitutes that. If so, that is acceptable enough. It hardly actually bothered me, even if it is something I have little desire to actually entertain for long. Blizzard invented the ignore feature for a reason, so don't take this as a complaint. I'm just genuinely curious how you view it as different than what you just said you don't want to do.

I don't really care what hardcore pvpers do or say when talking to each other in private, but I do have to shake my head when the Call of Duty "lol u suk i f ur mom' mentality pops up on the forums. It speaks badly for the maturity level of our server. One can PvP without calling out others on the forums, or slandering the names of guilds and making troll posts. This is hardly something limited to PvPers in the slightest, and I dislike it when RPers do it as well, but it is something you and your members have done, hence why I must mention it. (I can offer links, if you'd like, but that's more effort than I care to go into and you probably have some idea of the varying topics I refer to.) Just try to keep that out of the public and you'll find little issue from most of us.

You keep talking of how you'd like to play along with everyone else and just have fun, but I've yet to see the same actions to support it. Contrary to what you might think, I actually rather enjoy all the skirmishes and fights, otherwise I wouldn't go seek them out. Its nice to have a challenging fight. Its the aftermath that is discouraging people rather than encouraging. (The threads, whispers, ect.) If you actually truly want to encourage more PvP participation, then take this as advice - most of us don't care for that !@#$. You're hurting your cause rather than helping it with that. You're free to ignore me and keep doing all that if you wish, just don't expect it to accomplish much positive.

(P.S If you ever end up changing your guild name, could I make a suggestion for the Raoul Fanclub? I certainly seem to be a popular fellow in that thread.)

Here's the thing: RPers can sometimes be understandably touchy when it comes to the inclusion of PvP-centric behavior on their realms. It isn't an issue of whether we're a minority or whether we should be (and from my personal perspective, I don't think we should ever be a minority on RP realms; those are designated as places for RPers to go, and we should at least feel more welcome there than on normal or PvP realms), merely that there's been enough instances of griefing in the past that we can sometimes get defensive.

There's prevalent behavior amongst regular PvP participants that sometimes makes RPers defensive, as well. This isn't to say every dedicated PvP player behaves like that, and I personally try to give each individual the benefit of the doubt until I see something warranting otherwise, but it's sometimes hard not to follow through on a trained response. No one much bothers talking to each other in Arena matches, but you go into a Battleground, and it's rampant trash-talking that quickly overtakes your entire team if even one person decides they don't like the way an individual on their team, or the team as a whole, is doing something. I don't know if it's the adrenaline of the moment removing someone's better behavior inclinations or what, but it's there, and it often bleeds over into world PvP behavior.

I mean, hell, I can recall people on Cenarion Circle trash-talking each other in Classic whenever the Hillsbrad Tug o' War would erupt (that was, when people could finally type once their computers let them move beyond a slideshow...). That trash-talking is 100% of the reason we have a language barrier between the factions; it isn't an RP reason, as at this stage of the conflict you figure that even if individual racial languages aren't well-known, most people of both factions can likely converse (if not always fluently) and definitely fully understand both Orcish and Common.

Cenarion Circle was an RP realm that launched with WoW in late 2004, and for a span of time leading up to just prior to Wrath of the Lich King, was a "Preferred Realm" for someone who selected Pacific Time and RP Realm when first selecting a realm. This resulted in a lot of people coming to the realm who weren't necessarily interested in RP, as the realm would show up near the top of the list even when just selecting "Pacific Time", and they could see the realm was high-population.

Whether intended or not, snarky threads like a "farming guide" where opposing faction combatants are referred to as "crops" doesn't help the natural defensiveness many RPers feel towards PvPers. Yes, I realize it was intended 100% tongue in cheek, and as much as I would like to believe intent trumps perception, the practical reality is it just doesn't.

So when you combine an attempt at reviving world PvP (and PvP in general, and I understand completely, as I was attempting to do it within an RP framework not even two months ago, an attempt that perhaps failed largely because of the personality I had built for Ragefang, so I may have to own up to this; but I also realize it has a lot to do with the level of general PvP interest amongst our dedicated RP community) with a perception of stereotypical PvPer behavior, it can be potentially very flammable, and I think we're seeing some embers of that right now.

I don't want PvPers to feel unwelcome on Cenarion Circle. Left to my own devices, I would seriously rather see everyone get along so we can all have fun in the game, which will inevitably lead to engaging stories amongst those who choose to RP. If anything, I'd rather see those who prefer PvP perhaps dip their toes into RP, as more RPers can only improve our realm; we took a hit with Wyrmrest Accord, who now outstrips us both in frequency and diversity of RP in both factions. It isn't a competition, but I'd rather have not seen our RP community cannibalized by another realm because they were dissatisfied with things on this community. I'd rather see both communities grow simultaneously.

Likewise, as I occasionally enjoy PvP(the Dominion attack on Goldshire/Elwynn Forest a few days ago was a lot of fun!), I'd like to see more RPers become involved in some PvP, if only to go into battlegrounds, get one-shot a lot til they build up some Honor Points to acquire some better gear, and then see if, once they can mechanically compete, they might actually enjoy it.

I think this discussion is useful if only for that: let's reach some understanding. This is our realm, and it's what we make it. If someone thinking about this realm sees an argument, I can't control their conclusions about it, but I can at least remain optimistic enough to think that they see the people here care enough about our community at large to engage, enthusiastically, differences with an intent towards resolution, and not just sniping at each other.

That's, sadly, what the General Discussion forum is for. :S

Thanks for the support Rage, I like to see this from the CC community. I feel like a few people just jumped the gun and assumed that I was bringing elitist jerks back to CC, but in reality I'm trying to do the opposite. I'm trying to get a new generation of PvPers that can play well and not !@#$ talk constantly and speak down to other players like they're above CC. I've noticed that some few semi-high rated players think it's okay for them to speak down to this server as if they're too good to be on here, it kind of bothers me because almost everyone who has wanted to get better at PvP started at a below-average to average skill level.

Mind if I ask what was up with the whispers after that one fight near the bridge, then? It certainly came off as trash-talking and talking down to me, though perhaps we merely have different ideas of what constitutes that. If so, that is acceptable enough. It hardly actually bothered me, even if it is something I have little desire to actually entertain for long. Blizzard invented the ignore feature for a reason, so don't take this as a complaint. I'm just genuinely curious how you view it as different than what you just said you don't want to do.

I don't really care what hardcore pvpers do or say when talking to each other in private, but I do have to shake my head when the Call of Duty "lol u suk i f ur mom' mentality pops up on the forums. It speaks badly for the maturity level of our server. One can PvP without calling out others on the forums, or slandering the names of guilds and making troll posts. This is hardly something limited to PvPers in the slightest, and I dislike it when RPers do it as well, but it is something you and your members have done, hence why I must mention it. (I can offer links, if you'd like, but that's more effort than I care to go into and you probably have some idea of the varying topics I refer to.) Just try to keep that out of the public and you'll find little issue from most of us.

You keep talking of how you'd like to play along with everyone else and just have fun, but I've yet to see the same actions to support it. Contrary to what you might think, I actually rather enjoy all the skirmishes and fights, otherwise I wouldn't go seek them out. Its nice to have a challenging fight. Its the aftermath that is discouraging people rather than encouraging. (The threads, whispers, ect.) If you actually truly want to encourage more PvP participation, then take this as advice - most of us don't care for that !@#$. You're hurting your cause rather than helping it with that. You're free to ignore me and keep doing all that if you wish, just don't expect it to accomplish much positive.

(P.S If you ever end up changing your guild name, could I make a suggestion for the Raoul Fanclub? I certainly seem to be a popular fellow in that thread.)

It mostly was provoked by you GY camping RPers post TB. Nothing really bothers me more than a mage that trinkets gouges picking on roleplayers and other casuals with his group of lackeys. Expect retaliation when you do that kind of stuff, or don't do it when you cant handle the backlash.

I'm not obligated to play nice with a bunch of thugs that run around thinking they're king !@#$ by corpse camping as a group of 5-10.

Graveyard camping happens on both sides, with or without Raoul, really. The span of the people involved crosses many guilds, and both factions.

It did, infact, happen months before Raoul was ever involved in it - so really, I don't see the point in personally calling out any one person on the forums over it. Much less the dragged out e-peen contest you seem intent upon having with him.

Please, don't act like you're defending RPers when you've harassed them in whispers and griefed them in the past. I'm willing to believe you're ready to turn over a new leaf.

But that's a poor, backhanded argument.

It mostly was provoked by you GY camping RPers post TB. Nothing really bothers me more than a mage that trinkets gouges picking on roleplayers and other casuals with his group of lackeys. Expect retaliation when you do that kind of stuff, or don't do it when you cant handle the backlash.

I'm not obliged to play nice with a bunch of thugs that run around thinking they're king !@#$ by corpse camping as a group of 5-10.

I'll tell you ahead of time. This won you points with the Allies.

The gang of graveyard campers post-TB has been a problem, and I'll not argue with someone finally shoving them back.

EDIT: Not to say the graveyard campers were only RPers, but several of them certainly were. Even if this isn't about defending RPers from thugs, the difference has been noticeable.

I was going to say, Narn - a bit of a doublestandard, there. Non-RPers do it, but RPers do it, and suddenly, !@#$storm. As you say, it's not only RPers - and does, infact happen on both sides.

And believe me when I say it's not only Horde RPers who've attempted this sort of thing.

Edit: On the contrary, Zl - you've harassed both Raoul and Krinda in whispers, to my memory, both RPers. Defending RPers so long as they're Alliance isn't going to earn you many points, so please, take off the rose-tinted shades.

Here's the thing: RPers can sometimes be understandably touchy when it comes to the inclusion of PvP-centric behavior on their realms. It isn't an issue of whether we're a minority or whether we should be (and from my personal perspective, I don't think we should ever be a minority on RP realms; those are designated as places for RPers to go, and we should at least feel more welcome there than on normal or PvP realms), merely that there's been enough instances of griefing in the past that we can sometimes get defensive.

The rule to good relations remains: show tolerance if not acceptance to others and ignore that which you cannot tolerate.

As someone suggested in the parent thread to this one, this applies both ways. "RP server" is effectively more a guide than it is a law. Whether some of us want to accept that or not, the reality shows us something very different: RP'ers and PvP'ers share this server together. There is no getting around that. Outcasting either side will make the other resent you and that resent is liable to show up in the form we call 'griefing' (or at least 'complaining').

So I agree it's "understandable" but for possibly different reasons than you.

Do we really live in a day and age where people can't just run to a portal, or hearth?

07/10/2012 01:11 PMPosted by Elgunaz

Do we really live in a day and age where people can't just run to a portal, or hearth?

Or take 5 minutes to get a drink or walk around and let your flag drop.

07/10/2012 01:11 PMPosted by Elgunaz

Do we really live in a day and age where people can't just run to a portal, or hearth?

They haven't figured out how to work the "Leave Tol Barad" button on the edge of the minimap yet.