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If I wasn't hoping for a chance at extra whatevers, I wouldn't need a master who can proc those extra whatevers and might as well find anyone with the proper profession.

That being said, as a transmute master, you certainly have the right to to your end of whatever business deal you make with someone. If they know ahead of time you intend to keep any procs, and are ok with it, fine. Otherwise, why do you *think* they wanted a transmute master for their transmute?

I personally do not do business with whatever masters who want to keep the procs. The reason I'm seeking out someone whose mastery is transmutations or whatever is because I'm hoping for procs myself.

Are you paying a bit extra or do you expect said proc to be free?

Truegold again as the example, I would find it hard to believe that someone will willing give away four extra bars for 100 gold let alone I also find it hard to believe that someone would honestly not pay extra and expect those four bonus bars should be given to them no questions asked.

But people argue it, and to me, its just mind bogeling as to why.

Are you paying a bit extra or do you expect said proc to be free?

I expect to find someone who puts a price on me purchasing their cool down. Whatever that cool down produces, I've already paid for. If you, as a master who's transmute specced, put a higher price on your cool down than I'm comfortable paying, we simply won't be doing business.

Similarly, if you attach caveats like "my cool down costs X gold, but if there's procs, I keep them" then we won't be doing business since the only advantage to doing business with a transmute master in the first place is the chance of a proc. If I know I won't get procs, I'm not giving my business to the person who's the reason I won't get procs. There are plenty of non-transmute specced people out there who'll sell their cool down too.

I see myself as purchasing futures here. I'm hoping that the value I'm putting forth will turn into greater value in return. This is not a hostage situation, there are no ransom payments to be made.

02/14/2011 10:36 AMPosted by Imperon

Are you paying a bit extra or do you expect said proc to be free?

I expect to find someone who puts a price on me purchasing their cool down. Whatever that cool down produces, I've already paid for. If you, as a master who's transmute specced, put a higher price on your cool down than I'm comfortable paying, we simply won't be doing business.

Similarly, if you attach caveats like "my cool down costs X gold, but if there's procs, I keep them" then we won't be doing business since the only advantage to doing business with a transmute master in the first place is the chance of a proc. If I know I won't get procs, I'm not giving my business to the person who's the reason I won't get procs. There are plenty of non-transmute specced people out there who'll sell their cool down too.

I see myself as purchasing futures here. I'm hoping that the value I'm putting forth will turn into greater value in return. This is not a hostage situation, there are no ransom payments to be made.

And here is from our angle. If I was a potion or elixir master, I could proc a thousand times a day as long as I had enough supplies. Giving away free procs would be no biggie, Id end up still making a nice sum of money.

As a xmute master, I have a CHANCE to proc ONCE a DAY with a shared CD on THREE current xmutes and a slew of older items. Once I pop said CD, there goes my money maker for the day. The game mechanics were designed to make items like truegold cost so much on the AH, as a reward for a xmute master using a shared CD proc once a day. Its OUR gamble for going into xmute mastery. If people are willing to pay more, that would be fine, though I personaly say its per bar/batch that procs should they proc.

I have no idea how it is now to get a mastery, but when it came out in BC it was a bit of a pain just to get the mastery. This is something the alchemist did, not the buyer. Thus thats the mechanics rewarding the alchemist.

Let me put it this way, yes communication is a must, but if your a buyer, your more often then not going to not get what you want if you demand it etc. If someone is nice, or heck even once in a while just silent, they may end up with the extras unbeknowest to them when dealing with me.

You have to remember, if a alchemist who is a xmute master is selling their CD, they are looking for a profit. When a potion/elixir master can proc endless times a day and make tons off of that, its only fair to at least realise a xmuter who procs is losing out if they give away their expensive procs for free or even at a reduced cost. We would like to make money too, this is the games way of doing so.

So again, kill em with kindness when dealing with...anyone. Dont be demanding, be nice, youl end up with one or all of four things. A good supplier, a new friend, bonus items, a good reputation.

Didios has a point here: the use of a transmute master's cooldown vs. using an elixir master's talents is a lot more "valuable" due to its limited usage. As noted, someone specialized in elixirs can make those elixirs all day as long as they have mats available. It doesn't matter how many mats I have available for a Truegold transmute, I can only attempt it once a day, which may translate to once every 20 hours or twice every 20.999999999999 repeating hours if I happen to do the transmute close to midnight.

As it stands right now, the going rate for a Truegold transmute appears to be around 150g-200g. The ability to make large-scale profit off our profession is limited by the cooldown mechanic, a limitation elixir specialists don't have. With the provision of mats and some patience so as not to flood the AH, they can make 200g from a single sale and repeat it by crafting again.

Truegold bars, meanwhile, float at around 700g on the AH. That chance right there is where the transmute specialist's true profit opportunity lies. That's their chance to make profit commensurate with the unlimited production capabilities of the elixir specialist.

What muddies this up is both sides have a legitimate point in the discussion. The buyer says "You wouldn't have had a proc without my mats", the alchemist says "You wouldn't have a chance at getting more than the guarantee of your mats without my mastery."

As Imperon has noted, any alchemist can do a Truegold transmute. If you go to an alchemist who isn't specialized in transmutation, you're getting a guarantee of one Truegold bar at whatever price the two of you agree on. If you go to a master, you might perhaps be doing so in the hopes of getting more than your mats would yield with someone else.

The thing is, at that point, you need to be willing to pay more. If you go to a specialist and say "I'll pay you 200g for your Truegold transmute and I want any procs as well", and you go to another alchemist without this mastery and say "I'll pay you 200g for your Truegold transmute", the specialist is being sensible in saying "You can't pay me what you'd pay someone else and expect to get more than you'd get from someone else."

I personally see no problem with giving first-sale rights to a buyer if they're coming to a specialist. But let's be honest here: those first sale rights, while at a possible discount in acknowledgment of someone else providing the materials that generated the extras, still aren't free.

The mats you hand over to the alchemist generate one Truegold bar. If no proc occurs, it's as though you're dealing with any other alchemist, who may or may not have let you know of their specialty. But if they're a transmute specialist, and more Truegold bars show up in the transmute, while those bars were technically generated via the mats you the buyer brought, they only came about because of the alchemist's abilities.

I personally think something in the area of a 25% discount off the going rate on the AH (using the lowest Buyout price on the AH at that time) is reasonable. So if the lowest buyout rate is 700g, it isn't unreasonable to say "My cooldown costs 200g, and that gets you one Truegold bar. If a proc happens, each additional bar is yours for 525g. If you choose not to exercise this buying opportunity, the extra(s) is mine to do with as I please."

It's one thing if someone just says "I'm looking for an alchemist to purchase their Truegold cooldown". If a transmute master happens to respond, if they're honest it's their responsibility to tell the buyer, "I'm a specialist, and more than one bar might pop up." At that point they have to agree to terms regarding the additional product. If terms can't be reached, the honest transmuter says, "You're probably better off finding another alchemist, so you don't have to deal with the vagaries of extras being generated."

The dishonest ones are out there. There's no appeals process if a dishonest one is found; if you note that they generated two bars by looking at your combat log, reporting them to a GM for "dishonesty" isn't going to net anything. The GM will consult the chat logs, see that nothing was said one way or the other about procs, and say, "The terms of your agreement were met: you paid for their transmute, they provided you what you asked for: a Truegold bar."

But I'm sorry, my procs don't come free. It was your mats that generated one bar; it was my skill with alchemy that, concurrent with the initial transmutation, generated any extra product. In consideration of this concurrence happening as a result of your mats, I'll offer you first-purchase opportunity at a discount, but at no point will I ever assume that any extras generated are by default.

Thank you for understanding and being able to put it a wee bit better than I can Brynnara. The transmutations have gotten a bit better, not all items share a CD now, but still, plenty do. This has always been the issue. I dont know if its change recently, but the procs for all three masteries share the same rate. Whatever it is, 20% or something like that. Xmuters dont have a higher chance, as far as I know, been lazy in regards to patch notes recently.

That said, I personaly have gone as long as almost three months, with daily xmuting of an item on a CD with NO procs. I also have bad luck in general, but thats a diff thread!

Buyers please, consider transmuter masters CD and how it affects other transmutes as well. Again, all you really have to do is be nice and not demand. In all honesty, this mastery is more of a guild perk than a sellers perk. Those who do sell their CD or extra procs are doing so at a loss than those of potions and elixir masters. Imagine being able to use...I dont know...say the AH only once every day. You can only access it once every day and have a small selection of what you can buy/sell, and you can only buy/sell one of said item group. And if your oldschool, you had to go through some long drawn out quest just to be able to do that! Thats what its like as a xmute master.

Just dont be demanding is all!

You're free to operate however you wish, Didios. But claiming that you're owed the procs for your mastery - whatever the reason - is irrelevant. I'm not buying a cool down from someone who thinks that. Doubtless, this is fine by you. So long as you can find buyers who agree, it's a simple business arrangement.

My business arrangements simply don't involve any caveats about someone other than me walking away with what I paid for. There is no "demanding" here. When I make a business deal with a transmuter, it's for everything that transmute produces. I've said it before, but it bears repeating: if I don't get the extra materials off a proc, I have no reason to value a transmute master's cool down over anyone else's.

You're claiming that your transmute mastery should only ever benefit you in one sentence, then talking about how I should consider it important because of the work you put in to getting it. If I'm to value your mastery, it has to benefit me in some fashion.

Brynnara, I can certainly appreciate your desire to make more money based off procs, but it's still bad business for me to agree to the sort of deal you've outlined. Saving a bit of money off the AH price of something isn't going to make the deal go from bad to good. 700 gold a bar, 500 gold a bar, whatever; it takes only a couple moments and some simple math to know that the other guy's walking away with much larger portion of the value produced by a transmute than I am. I'd simply be a very poor businessman to make such a deal.

You're free to operate however you wish, Didios. But claiming that you're owed the procs for your mastery - whatever the reason - is irrelevant. I'm not buying a cool down from someone who thinks that. Doubtless, this is fine by you. So long as you can find buyers who agree, it's a simple business arrangement.

My business arrangements simply don't involve any caveats about someone other than me walking away with what I paid for. There is no "demanding" here. When I make a business deal with a transmuter, it's for everything that transmute produces. I've said it before, but it bears repeating: if I don't get the extra materials off a proc, I have no reason to value a transmute master's cool down over anyone else's.

You're claiming that your transmute mastery should only ever benefit you in one sentence, then talking about how I should consider it important because of the work you put in to getting it. If I'm to value your mastery, it has to benefit me in some fashion.

Brynnara, I can certainly appreciate your desire to make more money based off procs, but it's still bad business for me to agree to the sort of deal you've outlined. Saving a bit of money off the AH price of something isn't going to make the deal go from bad to good. 700 gold a bar, 500 gold a bar, whatever; it takes only a couple moments and some simple math to know that the other guy's walking away with much larger portion of the value produced by a transmute than I am. I'd simply be a very poor businessman to make such a deal.

By your very own statement then you KNOW your paying for ONE bar...period. If your not going to pay extra vs a non xmuter, then as you also stated, the xmuter is a very poor businessman. Its a two way street, as an xmuter, Im losing far more than you are. Thus the whole point of this thread.

I believe...we have evolved into something beyond a goblin...we are now ferengi.

While it has been fascinating and valuable hearing your point of views, this is hardly a debate over logic, ethics, or even a standardization of business practices... as the consumer in this discussion is looking for something specific and, evidently, the businessfolk are providing something else.

Bartering is a somewhat social activity, and there really isn't a single ideal and optimum outcome as value may differ between the participants as illustrated throughout this thread. :)

02/15/2011 1:20 AMPosted by Imperon

Brynnara, I can certainly appreciate your desire to make more money based off procs, but it's still bad business for me to agree to the sort of deal you've outlined. Saving a bit of money off the AH price of something isn't going to make the deal go from bad to good. 700 gold a bar, 500 gold a bar, whatever; it takes only a couple moments and some simple math to know that the other guy's walking away with much larger portion of the value produced by a transmute than I am. I'd simply be a very poor businessman to make such a deal.

I get what you're getting at, Imperon: you're looking at it from one side of an argument where both sides have valid points. They're your mats, so anything produced is a result of those mats, and would thus be yours. I can't categorically refute it out of hand, I can only point out the other end of the equation: your mats, my talents. Both go into the transmute.

10xvolatile air/fire/water + 3 pyrium bars = 1 Truegold bar. Since most alchemists selling their services are aware of what the others are charging, there's typically a bottom line that most of them are unwilling to go under, and the price for the cooldown remains generally fixed at around 150g-200g per cooldown. So this is what any alchemist can produce. This is what those mats plus the cooldown fee are paying for. Any extra procs are 100% the result of the transmute master's talent, even if they're a result of RNG. As such, I personally feel the alchemist in that situation is fair setting a price on those procs.

Cost is irrelevant, procs are handled at the discretion of the alchemist, NOT the buyer's preference. Assuming your position is clarified in advance the buyer has rights to only what they pay for or agree to when they asked you to transmute.

Imperon, the problem you are hitting, is that you are looking at business as being a "fair" system where you get out what you put in (if not more, because of the magic of possibly getting extras from the mats of one).

Let's take a real world-ish example (without accurate numbers since I don't know them).

A farm sells an item to a company for $0.01 per unit (in bulk).
That company then turns around and uses that $0.01 item in conjunction with 9 other products from other sources in which they too bought those items for $0.01 each, for a total bought price of $0.10 for the cost of materials they have.

This company then turns around and sells that new product for $2.99 to the consumer.

Now let's change it up a bit and say instead that this farm sells the same item to a company for $0.01, and it ends up being a supermarket. That market will turn around and sell the item for $0.25 per unit.

But if the farm sold it's product straight to the consumer, they could get away with selling it for $0.25 themselves, if not more.

That's where the problem lies. Business isn't fair. They is always going to be someone getting the better deal, and that's just how it works.

Hell, go watch any episode of those TV shows dealing with auctions, or antique "pickers", or pawn shops. The store knows it can sell an item to a collector for $1,000, but they will not buy the item from someone for more than like $250 or something.

It's all about convenience when you go to a transmute master. It is more convenient for you to get multiple procs off of them, but in return for that convenience, you have to be willing to pay extra.

You could go to the store and buy a bottle of soda for a buck, or you can go to 7-11 when the store is closed, and get one for 2 or 3 bucks. You can't go to 7-11 and throw a fit because they won't sell you the same item for the same amount at the store.

HOWEVER, if someone is specifically asking for a Transmute Mastery Alchemist, it is obvious that they are wanting the procs. It is up to the Alchemist and the buyer to come to some plan, or cancel their transaction. It is as simple as that. However the profit should work more for the transmuter.

Masters cost more. If a buyer wants a single Truegold bar with no muss/fuss, and a generally fixed price range (it's still floating at between 150g-200g per cooldown), they can go to any Alchemist. If someone goes to a Master by specifically seeking them out, then, like Paranitis said, chances are they're looking for procs. They shouldn't expect those procs for free.

Their mats guarantee them one bar for the agreed-upon cooldown price. Anything above and beyond that is negotiable, but should be negotiated before mats are handed over and the alchemist starts the use of their cooldown. Me, I offer a first-buyer chance to the one whose mats might potentially generate extra product, and I offer it at a slight discount, said discount currently being 25% off the lowest buyout price for a bar on the auction house. If they find those terms disagreeable, I let them know they have one of two options: we can proceed, but any procs are 100% mine to do with as I will, or they can seek another alchemist whose terms are more to their liking.

Alchemy is one of the more popular crafting professions, due to the perceived necessity of flasks in raids. We're experiencing a current boost, as well, due to perceived cash-making opportunities with the Vial of the Sands, this expansion's motorcycle. So there's no lack of options; if you say "Looking for a transmute master for Truegold" in Trade, be ready to pay more. If you say "Looking for a Truegold cooldown", you might get a transmute master who answers (and if they're honest they should arrange business terms for any procs in advance and let you know they're a master), or you might get an alchemist who specialized in something else; in either case, you're getting the one Truegold bar your mats provide. In some cases, you might get more for the same amount of materials, but the more should never be assumed to come with the same price tag as just one. Yes, they're your mats; those mats wouldn't have generated more than one bar without the transmute master's ability.