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So I am an xmuter, been one for a good while, dabled in flasks for a bit, then went back to xmutin! Though they have gotten a wee bit better with what is and isnt on a CD, its still a CD which means ya gotsta wait!

That being said, I was attempting to sell the CD in trade a few moments ago, when I got a tell that...somewhat aggrovated me, puzzled me for sure and got me wondering how everyone else handles their procs.

Now to me, its the CD your selling, or essentialy one item unless stated otherwise. In this case I was selling the truegold CD, which a single bar in the AH seems to go for about 700+ gold. What puzzled me was, why would someone think they would get the bonuses bars for free of an item that costs that much? The CD goes for 100-200 gold, thats my given profit from that spell for up to a full 24hrs. I didnt state what the discount was, but I would of shot for about 300-400 gold per extra bar, which is still profit in the buyers pocket if they wanted to resell the bars on the AH.

What all are your views on the subject? Unlike flasks and potions were if your bored or have tons of customers, you can proc all damn day if your lucky, while xmute for some items, which are shared on a CD, your procing wayyyyyyyyyyy less and removing the chance to even xmute, let alone proc other items.

If the person I was talking to reads this, please I am not calling you out etc, just trying to clarify my reasoning, and seeing what other views are on this subject.

I've always seen any of the alchemy craftable patterns that can proc the same way I see people that choose to buy a mystery box. The cooldown itself is the box. Whatever comes out of the box, then belongs to the person who purchased it.

Though if I were an alchemist, I'd probably ask for a minor compensation if I managed to double or quadruple proc an item.

Cost is irrelevant, procs are handled at the discretion of the alchemist, not the buyer's preference. Assuming your position is clarified in advance(Procs are mine, Procs cost extra, Procs are yours) the buyer has rights to only what they pay for or agreed too when they asked you to transmute.

I always give the procs over. Though I rarely will go out in trade and be like "selling CD". I generally only save it for myself, guildies and friends, and then I always give them the proc.

Oddly, most people needing the transmute specifically are looking for a transmute master for the extra chance at the procs.

There seem to be two schools of thought on the issue, both represented here. The way I personally handle it is this: I indicate in Trade that I'm selling my Truegold cooldown, at whatever price I think is reasonable. I set a price, I don't offer to do it "for a tip", because honestly, it has value; I can blow the cooldown for someone and get a "tip" (most tips being in the range of 15-25 gold), which is inherently optional (i.e., I could use up my cooldown and get nothing, and would have little reason to complain since I didn't indicate there was a fee involved), or I can save up the mats (easily obtainable over a couple days' work of farming up Volatile Life and doing the transmute in the appropriate Cataclysm zone to get the mats I actually want) and sell a Truegold bar for 700g on the auction house.

I typically set a price, and indicate "If it procs, your transmute is free, but I keep the extra bar." That seems equitable to me. They know up front that they're going to get their Truegold bar, and it's going to cost a set amount (typically 200g, from me at least), and they're willing to gamble on possibly getting their transmute for free, and I still manage to profit at that point, either by selling the proc on the AH or by using it as a crafting mat for someone in my guild.

As long as you're upfront about your business and how you will handle the materials and procs, you're in the clear.

Open communication is key, I agree. At no point should either the alchemist or the person purchasing their cooldown make any assumptions whatsoever. This leads inevitably to a scenario where either the seller feels cheated because chance rewarded them with more results than they were expecting, but they didn't receive the additional results, or the alchemist is feeling cheated because the additional product wouldn't have arisen without their intervention, and the original deal was for a single product, not multiples.

A scenario where the seller and buyer feel safe goes like this:

Buyer: "I want to buy your Truegold cooldown."
Alchemist: "I charge 200 gold."
Buyer: "Fine. It's cheaper than buying the bar on the auction house."
Alchemist: "I'm a transmutation specialist."
Buyer: "So I might get a second bar?"
Alchemist: "That isn't how I personally work. Here's the deal: you pay me 200g for the cooldown. If you get just one bar, then I hand you the bar and you hand me 200g. If my transmutation procs, I'm not going to charge my fee, but I keep the extra bar. You'll still get the bar your mats would have provided."
Buyer: "But my mats provided the extra bar."
Alchemist: "No, my transmutation provided the extra bar. Your mats provided the first bar. That's why I'm offering you a free transmute if it procs. At that point my price becomes the second bar, and you save your gold, which if you have the additional mats, you can then go to another alchemist and use their transmute. Perhaps they'll have terms you find more amenable if they're a transmute specialist and a second bar pops up again."

At that point, the buyer either agrees to the alchemist's terms, or they decide to shop elsewhere. At all points, the terms were on the table and in discussion. Agreement is reached when the buyer opens up a trade window and hands over the mats.

The bad scenario is:

Buyer: "I want your Truegold cooldown."
Alchemist: "Sure, hand over your mats."
Buyer: "I'll tip."
Alchemist: "Cool." *does transmute and gets a proc, then hands over one bar*
Buyer: "Here's 25g for your cooldown. Hey, you got a proc! I get two bars!"
Alchemist: "25g? Seriously? That's all you're paying? Like hell you're getting the second bar."
Buyer: "I'm opening a ticket!"

Communication. Agree on terms before any materials or gold changes hands. With those two things, your transaction runs smoothly. The amounts involved don't matter, it's whatever you and your buyer agree on. But make sure there's an understanding, so that if you have a disgruntled buyer who opens a ticket with a GM (and there are those who will), you have a chat log showing that they agreed to your terms.

My overall thing is with the CD. By having to wait a full on day, your money maker for your ability to proc is gone, let alone your ability to create volatiles and pyrite. Potion and elixir, you can cast the same spell a thousand times a day, get X ammount of procs and never have to wait till supplies run out basicaly. IE the spell and the ability to proc dosnt cost you possible profit/extra items. Transmutation DOES. You can only xmute spells 1-6 once a day and can only pick one of out the six and PRAY you get a proc. Thus why truegold is costly as is on the AH, and should be clearly accepted by everyone that bonus bars, gems is the way the mechanic rewards the xmuter for a shared day long CD. Not the buyer. Otherwise, if xmuters could xmute truegold all damned day long like flasks and potions, do you honestly think the bars would be even 50 gold a pop?

01/29/2011 9:05 PMPosted by Amaelalin

As long as you're upfront about your business and how you will handle the materials and procs, you're in the clear.

This is key with everything in this game. If you are selling yourself as an xmute master, the people are going to come to you for the simple fact that you *may* proc them an extra bar for their mats. The sheer amount of truegold that is needed for blacksmithing patterns is unreal, and at this early stage of the game, people are seeking out the best possible ways to use their mats.

Just be up front about how you handle the procs.... and don't be a jerk for crying out loud.

01/30/2011 10:50 PMPosted by Didios

Thus why truegold is costly as is on the AH, and should be clearly accepted by everyone that bonus bars, gems is the way the mechanic rewards the xmuter for a shared day long CD. Not the buyer. Otherwise, if xmuters could xmute truegold all damned day long like flasks and potions, do you honestly think the bars would be even 50 gold a pop?

If this is the way you really feel, then don't sell your xmute in trade. Those mats were not yours to start with, you should not be profiting twice off of the same transaction.

01/31/2011 3:54 AMPosted by Shait

If this is the way you really feel, then don't sell your xmute in trade. Those mats were not yours to start with, you should not be profiting twice off of the same transaction.

But he does have a point, as was discussed multiple times in this thread.

If an Alchemist advertises their CD in trade, it should be assumed that:

Pyrite Bar x3 + Volatile Fire x10 + Volatile Air x10 + Volatile Water x10 = Truegold Bar x1

Your mats go toward one bar. Anything past that is entirely up to the whim of the Alchemist doing the transmutation.

Some transmuters will charge 100g or 200g or 300g, or whatever is it. So if one guy charges 300g, but on average, other people charge 200g, then after the transmute is done (and we assume 1 bar), is it "right" for you to put 200g in the trade when that was not his asking price, and expect the item?

*note*
I do not say I do anything like this. In fact I just recently dropped transmuting again on my Priest to go back to flask proccing, and on my last transmute proccable CD I went to trade, offered it up for FREE, and got it to proc and I gave everything to the guy who wanted it. Now I tend to not even bother caring about my Priest's daily CD anymore unless guildies are trying to collect Truegold bars for some crafting.

01/31/2011 3:54 AMPosted by Shait

As long as you're upfront about your business and how you will handle the materials and procs, you're in the clear.

This is key with everything in this game. If you are selling yourself as an xmute master, the people are going to come to you for the simple fact that you *may* proc them an extra bar for their mats. The sheer amount of truegold that is needed for blacksmithing patterns is unreal, and at this early stage of the game, people are seeking out the best possible ways to use their mats.

Just be up front about how you handle the procs.... and don't be a jerk for crying out loud.

Thus why truegold is costly as is on the AH, and should be clearly accepted by everyone that bonus bars, gems is the way the mechanic rewards the xmuter for a shared day long CD. Not the buyer. Otherwise, if xmuters could xmute truegold all damned day long like flasks and potions, do you honestly think the bars would be even 50 gold a pop?

If this is the way you really feel, then don't sell your xmute in trade. Those mats were not yours to start with, you should not be profiting twice off of the same transaction.

Its not how I feel, that was the design intent. It was designed to ensure certain items that require tons of mats are rare and create a profit for the creator. As for the xmuter, losing certain spells for a whole day for a CHANCE at a proc, and getting that proc IS OUR reward for going into xmuting, no one elses. Selling the CD is not only selling a truegold xmute, its selling other xmutes as well. Now if it wasnt on a shared CD, Id be more understanding, but the mechanics are designed to reward the creator, not the buyer, and this should be clearly expressed/known/rule of thumb etc this far into the game.

I personally used the gambling approach. the Procs on transmutes are just about as good as slot machine odds so why not. I'll sell the cooldown for a certain price, and if you want to pay extra for the possibility of the proc, then it's your gamble. otherwise, you're paying for the cooldown itself. Why should I blow the cooldown and not reap the rewards of my work to level alchemy? Blacksmiths sell their armor and weapons full price, So do Leatherworkers, enchanters and everyone else. Needless to say most people don't like the gambling, so I just transmute my own mats and cheer when I get a proc.

I find it interesting that people would attempt to minimize an alchemist's opportunity to make money from their profession. People don't begrudge Jewelcrafters, Blacksmiths, or Enchanters that option, so I don't think they should begrudge an alchemist that option either.

As someone said above, the materials you hand over after you've agreed on a price for the Alchemist's cooldown are for one, count it, one, item, in this case, a single Truegold bar. You can go to any Alchemist who's maxed out their profession, and if they have the cooldown available and are willing to sell it to you, you can get your one bar.

If you want a shot at two bars, you go to a transmutation specialist, but you should communicate, up front, that you want the extra bar if it procs. Doubtless, the alchemist selling you his/her cooldown is going to raise their price in such an instance. To me, the fair thing to do is to only raise the price if, in fact, a second bar shows up.

Yes, the Alchemist wouldn't have gotten that second bar without your mats. Likewise, you wouldn't have gotten a bar at all without the Alchemist. Both of you are required for a successful transaction.

Just realize that for the Alchemist, you're locking away a fundamental part of their profession for up to 20 hours from the point of purchase. You're preventing them from taking volatiles they don't need and turning them into volatiles they do need. You're preventing them from transmuting gems they don't need into gems they do need. Anything and everything they do requiring the use of their alchemist's stone is locked away for up to 20 hours. If you factor in that most people need to sleep and either go to work or school (i.e., they aren't in front of World of Warcraft all the time), you're talking a general 24 hour cooldown. That cooldown likely won't disappear until shortly before the next expansion launches, at a time when Truegold is nearly worthless, much like Titanium is now.

In short, yes, as an Alchemist, I'm fully aware that my Truegold transmute has value. I don't charge what the Auction House is charging for a bar; I typically charge 200g. I also make it known up front that I'm a transmutation specialist, and any procs that arise are mine, but in return, you then don't have to pay me the 200g. If my terms aren't agreeable, then there are other Alchemists out there who may have terms more amenable to that particular buyer. Me, I think the chance to get the single Truegold bar you're looking for at no cost to you is a nice gamble; you plan on paying the fee, but if things go well on RNG, you pay no fee, and after it's all said and done, you not only have what you want (your Truegold bar), I also have something I can use either for my guild's purposes, or just to make some spare cash (because the materials for the Vial of the Sands aren't cheap, and I wanna be a dragon). Either way, you got what *you* wanted, right?

Brynnara, Im glad your not the only who realises this about the shared CD, which has always been the gripe of xmute masters. Heck I wouldnt even gripe about this if each sort of xmute had a seperate CD. IE metals, gems, elementals. When one makes an item with someone elses mats, its generaly a TIP they are working for. But as you and I stated, as a xmute master, your not only selling your CD between various xmute spells, but also the chance to even proc with said spells. Thus the difference between a 10 gold tip for a batch of potions and a 100-200 gold sale price for a xmute cd.

If this was a new concept, even then I wouldnt be so flabbergasted about this, but its been around a while now....

I find it interesting that people would attempt to minimize an alchemist's opportunity to make money from their profession. People don't begrudge Jewelcrafters, Blacksmiths, or Enchanters that option, so I don't think they should begrudge an alchemist that option either.

When it's put so broadly, I just wish to point out that people /do/ attempt to minimize the opportunities of professionals where possibilities exist to appropriate gains.

Off the top of my head, I recall pristine hides and disenchanted materials have filled countless threads. The current debate amongst the crafts seems to regard chaotic orbs.

I'm not looking to debate either way, but I felt the original statement was somewhat erroneous.

As has been pointed out many times in this thread, it is all about communication.

Miscommunication is possible as soon as you say "Selling cooldown" because exactly what a cooldown entails is open to interpretation.

If a Blacksmith makes a Sword, the mats vanish and one Sword appears. Every time. No confusion.

When you do a Transmute, you sometimes get extras. If you sold the "cooldown" it is not unreasonable for someone to assume the proceeds of the cooldown are transferred.

If you want to sell ONE bar, just say "My cooldown is available, give me your mats + X and I will give you one bar."

As has been pointed out many times in this thread, it is all about communication.

Miscommunication is possible as soon as you say "Selling cooldown" because exactly what a cooldown entails is open to interpretation.

If a Blacksmith makes a Sword, the mats vanish and one Sword appears. Every time. No confusion.

When you do a Transmute, you sometimes get extras. If you sold the "cooldown" it is not unreasonable for someone to assume the proceeds of the cooldown are transferred.

If you want to sell ONE bar, just say "My cooldown is available, give me your mats + X and I will give you one bar."

As someone else stated and myself, a CD does only produce ONE of said item. All alchemists have said CD, its only the xmute specced alchemists that have a chance at creating more of said item. Just like a sword, a glyph or what have you, the mats will only make one item/batch.

While communication should be used in regards to mastery, people have to realise the mechanics. All alchemists can make truegold, all have a CD, all make ONE bar with said mats. Only those with xmute mastery have a chance at making extras. When you sayyour sellig a CD, thats just that, a CD, not the procs.

In my case, I stated the CD, and said the procs if the buyer wanted em would be discounted.

As Ive stated many times before, when you blow a CD, your also blowing being able to xmute certain other items as well, your essentialy picking one spell out of like three <actualy more for lower item stuff> that can be cast in a 20ish hour period. As a xmute master, thats a whamy as that means your chance to proc for said item is alot rarer than potions or elixirs and null for the shared CD items.

Communication is good yes, but you shouldnt have to break it down like this let alone get attitude for explaining game mechanics that are designed to be the xmuters reward, not the buyers.

If I wasn't hoping for a chance at extra whatevers, I wouldn't need a master who can proc those extra whatevers and might as well find anyone with the proper profession.

That being said, as a transmute master, you certainly have the right to to your end of whatever business deal you make with someone. If they know ahead of time you intend to keep any procs, and are ok with it, fine. Otherwise, why do you *think* they wanted a transmute master for their transmute?

I personally do not do business with whatever masters who want to keep the procs. The reason I'm seeking out someone whose mastery is transmutations or whatever is because I'm hoping for procs myself.

I know that for myself, while I make my deals as "procs are mine" and I then don't charge them for my cooldown in such a case, I'm also open to them purchasing the extra from me, possibly even at a discounted price; since the average going rate for a Truegold bar right now is 700-ish gold, I'd be willing to consider a 150g-200g discount for someone whose mats generated the proc, out of consideration for it being their mats that generated the proc to begin with.

But just as that consideration is extended to them, I expect the same: I may not have had a chance to make some profit off a proc without them, but they wouldn't have had a chance to get two for one set of mats without me. Any Alchemist can transmute Truegold; if you go to a master whose efforts may yield extra, you expect to pay extra. I liken it this way: I can have a painting done by an art school student, and it would be something I can't produce myself. But their best work, unless they're a prodigy, is going to be at the lowest end (at best) compared to a master artist.

To patronize the best, you gotta be willing to pay more.