World of Warcraft®

Nice one Sabertiger. Reckon we'll have to restrict gbank privelages for you now, gah. Sadly, what he is saying there is all too common. Or at least it certainly appears that way many times. Oh, and we *were* having a nice friendly discussion... it was only a matter of time until some idiot comes along to ruin that, eh Rijda? It seems that the possibility of some cooperation among guilds frightens you, doesn't it? *points at the chink in yer armor there. Insecurity must be a real !@#$%, eh man?

im only playing =P

i joined zen through a freind that came from darkspear, unfortunately he is hating the server and is going back i think

personally i keep to myself and never bother anybody, i really dont know you or anyone in guild but you guys seem cool so far. i most likely wont raid since im pretty casual and just like to fool around with pvp ( i have never done anythig that i listed.... well maybe in minor sort of way hehe... i do try to emphasize and cooperate with others )

my opinion on all this guild fighting amongst factions on this server is pretty silly, why worry what others are doing ?

just have fun and if you have a problem with anybody else simple solution is dont play with them or just ignore them, i have seen this on the many servers i play on.. guild wars between progression guilds, pvp guilds and just guilds that wanna start fights for personal reasons

just be cool all .... thats all

chill out and drink a beer hehe

Wall of Text crits you for over 9000!

I would expect to down more than 2/7 bosses... I hear apples has them all down 25man O.o

Ty all for the insight on what you expect from raiding.

Rijda, ty for your post but please don't start bashing people.

And yes Humpinhunter i believe they are too. i personally believe 25 man is easier than 10s for the simple fact u can afford a few people dieing in the fights, but is is harder to control that many more people. I'm not sure about their 10 man but I'm sure they can handle it. Apples has been one of the top leading guilds on the server and i congratulate them for continuing to own in the raids.

08/10/2011 06:14 PMPosted by Biggestbear

And yes Humpinhunter i believe they are too. i personally believe 25 man is easier than 10s for the simple fact u can afford a few people dieing in the fights, but is is harder to control that many more people. I'm not sure about their 10 man but I'm sure they can handle it. Apples has been one of the top leading guilds on the server and i congratulate them for continuing to own in the raids.

The Firelands 10 man encounters are drastically easier than the 25 man encounters. It has been confirmed by the feedback and analysis from just about every hardcore raiding source and via the progression routes that have been made by the top raiding guilds (clearing 10 mans firsts then moving onto 25).

http://www.paragon.fi/articles/10-vs-25-comparison
http://www.paragon.fi/news/10-man-vs-25-man-debate

Personally, I feel this is because of proximity abilities bosses do. For instance: 25 people spreading out exactly 6 yards in a room with limited spacing, to avoid an ability, is quite difficult; where as 10 people having to spread out the same distance with the same room is much, much easier. And that is a HUGE DPS increase for 10 mans because they aren't worrying about spacing. Every fight has some sort proximity factor that adds something extra to the 25 man encounters that 10 mans can simply ignore.

And you can afford a few people dying in a 25 man encounter? Really? Clearly you've never done (current) hardmode 25s in this expansion or last. It's usually a wipe if anyone dies for a lot of reasons that I could probably write a book on, but will save you the extended rant :P

But yeah, I like Hit's post. That's pretty much right on the money. And thank you for your congratulations.

08/10/2011 06:14 PMPosted by Biggestbear

i personally believe 25 man is easier than 10s

... Did we just get trolled?

No i haven't done much hard mode content, id like to do more but recently my connection wont allow raiding. But i have done some 25s. Yes there is always a problem with spacing more in 25s than in 10s and there is going to have more things happening. But what i said was a personal opinion. I'm not saying 25s are definitely easier than 10s and I'm not a hardcore raider.

As for the Paragon 10s vs 25s debate, that's their opinion, not mine. I'm not necessarily disregarding everything they say. But i don't have their experience or gear that they had to make their opinion. My opinion is based purely on past personal runs that iv had, and in those runs we had a few die, mainly some dps and a possible healer, but the boss still went down. Current content, 25s in the Bot, Bwd, and Cotfw raids where a lot easier. But with the nerf and FL gear that is now available, opinions vary between people.

FL 25s, we have done some attempts. Boss fight Shannox, possibly the easiest fight in FL. 5% best run but it was with people who were inexperienced and not geared for it. (mainly just to let people see the content) But what can we expect from a casual raiding guild that mainly does 10s cause a lot of people cant show up every night.

Great posts people, i really don't want to branch off too far from what the thread is about.

Your welcome Ellach

And no Skies, just a personal opinion towards a possible troll toon. Apples is always going to be a guild to look up too.

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents on this matter since it seems to be a continuing plague . . .

You will always have your two sides to the coin theory when dealing with this, everyone will always defend themselves, their ability to play their character, and their guild. . .now with this in mind think about every arguement you heard from the 10s is harder no 25s is harder rabbling pill of bull, you can't honestly call this a debate it's simply people stating their opinion.

As for now with "this" expansion Blizzard is trying to balance out the 2 raid styles (10s and 25s) individually but you also have to remember that during wrath it was also stated by Blizzard that 10 man raiding was in fact implimented for those casual players to have a chance at raiding and get the sense of accomplishment that those in guilds such as say, Paragon, Vodka, and my personal old favorite of the TBC days. . .Death and Taxes. Come this expansion blizzard has made conscious efforts to balance the 2 platforms of raid content but it's still a new concept and tough to figuratively balance properly when dealing with buffs classes and player skill involved. . .the effort was made easily noticable in the class abilities recently distributed with this expansion, i.e. DK battle rez, hunter/mage ability to apply a bloodlust/heroism buff to the raid. . .passive buffs almost all classes have the same now depending on the spec chosen. But when you get down to the nitty gritty you nerf either of 10s or 25s the other will suffer.

Now to add on to this concept via personal experience prior to the normal mode nerf of T11 content and the current T12 content I found normal mode 10 man content to be far simpler than it's 25 counterpart then you enter the Heroic form of the encounter and things get really interesting here, both forms of 10 and 25 raiding have their simpler fights where as each has their far more challenging version of the encounter than it's counter part, yes some encounters leave smaller room for error on 10s than 25s but at the same time these 10m raiding guilds have not attempted these encounters on 25 heroic setting where room for error is just as unforgiving. As stated prior due to personal experience this has been my "opinion" not the hard fact nor the defining understanding. . .take a 25s or 10s raider out of his comfort
zone of their "normality" things may be found highly simplified or complicated depending on the situation at hand. So please enough of the "10s is deffinately more difficult" or "25s is the most complicated" rabble and just accept it for what it is. . .your damn opinion, and no that isn't a knock at your (the player reading) effectiveness with your character or ability to complete an encounter it's simply stating what is the only real fact. . .it's an opinion. So kudo's to you Biggestbear on actually confirming your thoughts for what they honestly are, your opinion and to the others stop defending either your own stupidity for not understanding an encounters mechanic as a misinterpretation of "difficulty" or lack of looking into the fight itself, Blizzard even took this a step further by adding the dungeon journal for easier understanding of a fight's mechanics. As for the balance part of the encounters on both 10 and 25 man version it's still a work in progress.

Thank you that is all, enjoy the game.

I don't see how they can be ever be evenly balanced when you can ignore an entire aspect of a fight in 10 mans, that can easily wipe you in 25s. Not having to move as much in a fight drastically increases survivability and dps in 10 mans. If a raid group doesn't know how to take advantage of poor balance... it's not that 10 mans are harder, that raid group is just bad/doing it wrong.

Having done both, Take Rags for example:
Phase 1 of Rags, 4 or so people get hit with every knock back because there is simply not enough space to spread out safely, causing chaos with waves, traps, and being tossed over the edge. In 10 man, there is so much room that this ability is not even worth mentioning that he does it.

In phase 2: The ground explodes right before he launches seeds. The seeds are what you need to stay 6 yards apart for or else the damage stacks per seed that lands in the proximity of the player. When the ground explodes, cutting 1/3 of the room off, 25 mans are forced to be within proximity of each other, doubling or tripling the damage done the initial damage of the seeds dropping, forcing healers to heal them up, move and then heal them up again when the seeds explode. As opposed to 10 mans where they will never have this problem because they can easily be spaced out enough.

In phase 3: Again, 1/3 of the floor ignites, lessening the room in which to kite the balls, if any of the balls collides with anyone, instant death. It is a lot easier to kite giant balls around 10 people than it is 25 people with 1/3 of the room cut off. Again, space! Arghs! Balls in my face!


In Majordomo...
Phase of the scorpion with the human ability: In 10 mans, the seed timers are set so that one person runs out at a time. Easy with no risk. In 25 man, the timers are set so that 3 people have to run out at a time. If those 3 people run in the same direction and explode on each other, double or tripling the damage taken, or not get healed back up in time for when they come back into the raid to absorb the slash, they die. How is that the same?

In the cat phase: He will randomly pounce on a player leaving a pool of fire on that player, slowly eating up the room around him. I don't think you have to be a rocket science to understand why having less people is better for this ability. Less room with 10 people or the same amount of "less room" with 25 people? Hm.. =/


In Alysrazor...
The tanks solo the birds and you have have 1 interrupter per druid. Zzzzzz. Where as in 25s, we have to dedicate the large portion of our DPS to birds, and have to set up an interrupt rotation on each druid, with multiple interrupters. There are as many brush fires in 10 as there is in 25 *cough* we get less room again to maneuver around the worms spewing fire. The same? Nope.


I think you get the idea with some examples from "the big 3" in normal-mode FLs. In my honest opinion, from personal experience as the raid leader of Apples, they aren't balanced. 10 mans totally ignore an important aspect of the fight which is, ironically, the aspect that makes 25s challenging. But to each their own. Honesty, if 10s are more fun for you, then they are more fun. More power to anyone that does 10s for the reason. This is just my perspective and 25s are much challenging thus more fun.

But if I actually ever knew what I was talking about, I'd be a better guild on another server anyways :P I kids.

Your opinion is that 25s are more challenging thus more fun. That 10s ignore aspects that show up in 25s. Fact of the matter is, i don't have your raid experience. I haven't experienced "the big 3" on normal 10 man so my opinion on them isn't going to change much till i do. And i really don't know a lot about Heroics other than its the same fights, but with added damage, health, and a new ability or 2.

As this raiding guild, the people that show up changes daily, many don't show up at all, and we need to work with what we got. We bring people in that would like to raid, teach them the fights, gear them for the content, and in some cases leave the guild ungrateful of what we done for them. (possible response from one or two of these people) As a Tank, iv got the gear to continue in progression, but me alone isn't going to make that happen.

Beth, Shannox, and a need to die already L.Rhyolith is my experience in FL. I can imagine the hell it would be trying to fit 25 people on Rhyolith's island but i cant base an honest opinion on it till i see it myself.

I feel with 10 mans you need to watch what classes you bring and what buffs they bring to the table, where with a 25 man you can pretty much double up or even triple up on every buff in the game. (<just an opinion) Also with our guild we lack Warlocks so even if we do a 25 man, at best we might have 1 warlock but most of the time none.

Hey folks, we're getting off-topic here.

Let's keep it to the original post by Biggestbear.

So... what are your raid expectations?

08/11/2011 06:25 AMPosted by Penelopae

So... what are your raid expectations?

I expect differences between 25 man modes and 10 man modes and am fascinated to be able to read diverse views on the matter.

Well, If i'm raiding 10 mans, i expect to walk into the room, moonfire the boss a couple times, and then he should writhe around in pain for a bit and then give me those new Armani pants i've been wanting.

That's so fashion.

Having done both 25's and 10's in this expansion to a great degree, they both lend to their own problems. There are things in 25 mans that you can just as easily ignore that you can't in 10 man.

You also have to keep in mind those of you in a 25 man group that a 10 man only guild doesn't keep a roster of 40 Raiders to chose from and hand pick for every situation. There are some fights that you have to equally get inventive on to cover aspects which are trivial in 25s.

It goes both ways, IMHO, and though I feel the 25 man cramped feel weighs a bit heavier on the tactics, anyone looking down their nose at a 10 man raid guild from a 25 man guild perspective is not only ill-informed but probably suffering from misplaced arrogance too.

10 man raiding is real raiding too. Just my opinion though.

<3 stoli, you always were the fashionable one, healing shannox is t1 gear, Also very fashionable.

Having done both 25's and 10's in this expansion to a great degree, they both lend to their own problems. There are things in 25 mans that you can just as easily ignore that you can't in 10 man.

You also have to keep in mind those of you in a 25 man group that a 10 man only guild doesn't keep a roster of 40 Raiders to chose from and hand pick for every situation. There are some fights that you have to equally get inventive on to cover aspects which are trivial in 25s.

It goes both ways, IMHO, and though I feel the 25 man cramped feel weighs a bit heavier on the tactics, anyone looking down their nose at a 10 man raid guild from a 25 man guild perspective is not only ill-informed but probably suffering from misplaced arrogance too.

10 man raiding is real raiding too. Just my opinion though.

I actually really appreciate this input here.
However, there's a difference between a 10man RAID and a 10man raiding GUILD. If ur guild is running 10s, then i think u should probably have at least 15 people to choose from and "hand pick" for your raid. With 25s, sure, its easier to pick out raid buffs and appropriate specs for ur raid comp seeing as there's so many slots to fill, but if you're the raid leader of a 10man guild, It shouldnt be any harder, unless you're afraid to step on someone's toes and sit them for a raid because they're less preferable for a certain fight.

And honestly (not looking down my nose at tens, but factual data here), we've done 10man raiding in between our 25 man groups, and i dont think a raid composition would have even mattered in 10s. Majordomo for example: The soft enrage and healing stress were almost negated by the amount of HP he had and his damage output. We 3 shot him without ever seeing the encounter before with myself and 2 holy pallyz (which means no OP disc bubble or spirit link totem [which would have helped EMMENSELY during high adrenaline stacks while in scorpion form] and it was not a problem at all to heal). Not to mention we had no 5% crit buff in our raid. and still never worried about his soft enrage. Basically, our composition was awful, but it didnt even matter. In 10s, Majordomo has about 60mill HP; in 25s, its a little over 200million. Which is 3.5x as much, even though the raid size is only 2.5x as large.

I understand there's a vast majority of 10man raiding guilds on this server. And respect alot of you guys, especially <Dominance>, <Council of Dragons> and <Riddle of Steel> and <Almost Motivated>. Without u guys, we wouldnt have alot of the drive that our raid group has to progress fast and vigorously. The competition for server firsts has always been and always will be what drives the top raiding guilds. To be doing any amount of progression on such a low pop server with an even lower amount of decent players to choose from is outstanding.

In conclusion, I guess what all this nonsense boils down to is that 10s are in fact easier than 25s; citing what ellach said above and from our own experience. The differences this tier of content are absolutely out of control. And its blizzards fault..


WALL OF TEXT CRITS YOU FOR 5498123865789

OH, and in response to another comment: if you die in a 25, its the same as 10s. U'll probably hit an enrage timer or a tank will die. Its no easier unless ur just a terribad and it takes 24 much more skilled and geared people to carry u to lewtz

<3 stoli, you always were the fashionable one, healing shannox is t1 gear, Also very fashionable.

How could having branches growing out of my tier 1 gear NOT be fashion!? Shannox died like a 14 year old gay boy watching Devil Wears Prada