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And honestly (not looking down my nose at tens, but factual data here), we've done 10man raiding in between our 25 man groups, and i dont think a raid composition would have even mattered in 10s. Majordomo for example: The soft enrage and healing stress were almost negated by the amount of HP he had and his damage output. We 3 shot him without ever seeing the encounter before with myself and 2 holy pallyz (which means no OP disc bubble or spirit link totem [which would have helped EMMENSELY during high adrenaline stacks while in scorpion form] and it was not a problem at all to heal). Not to mention we had no 5% crit buff in our raid. and still never worried about his soft enrage. Basically, our composition was awful, but it didnt even matter. In 10s, Majordomo has about 60mill HP; in 25s, its a little over 200million. Which is 3.5x as much, even though the raid size is only 2.5x as large.

This is a good example of what I'm talking about as differences.

Majordomo on 10's as a 10 man guild
He's got a wee bit over 3 times the amount of health because ... you have 3 times as much DPS going on and more importantly with better buffs and other damage sources (pets, etc...). So that's really not a validation. You guys also probably pushed him before or shortly into the "Pod phase" because you've had a lot more gear drop in 25's. We've had terrible experience in our drops, DE'ing about 60%+ of what we've gotten whereas my 25 man guild rarely DE's anything until everyone's geared out.

In 10's when you're at the Pod phase, there's the majority of your DPS dealing with pods whereas on 25's we had plenty of extra folks not having to deal with the Pods, so he died much faster. Sure, it was more hectic getting people in their spots, but honestly... we had an equally hard time in Dominance getting the pods addressed quickly since they kept spawning WAY away from the center of the room.


Healing
You're complaining about holy paladins? You're kidding right? They heal themselves and have beacon so thats 6 people that are lulziehealed through just single targeting. Not to mention Aura Mastery rotation (aka best mitigation for Flame Scythe)? Sorry but 6 seconds of 75% damage redux > 10 seconds of 25% damage redux... especially twice when he's Scything every 4 or 5 seconds. You can soak 4 Scythes easily, which we both know means he gets a lot more damage done to him.

Along with a Tranq, Wild Growth, Swiftmend, Rejuv stacks and Free HP heals? Give me some holy paladins please! I'm sure you guys had little to no problems since the bars were gettin refilled fast and super efficiently.

We 3 shot him our first look at him too, but that was with our best geared group. We're doing 16-7-6-6-6, but most guilds can't do that around here.


Anyways, I'll sit here and talk shop all day. I still stand by each type of raid having its difficulties and both should be proud in accomplishments.

Like i said, our raid comp was far less than perfect.

Holy paladins can aura mastery once per scorpion phase. And the aura mastery "healing cooldown" is about the equivalent of popping a prismatic elixir that costs 2 herbs. Want a perma pally cooldown? Go get a prismatic elixir. I'm waiting for the disc priest bubble in elixir form.

Our first experience on Domo was on 10 man, non official raid. We went from a 1 minute wipe from not spreading out together to phase him, to a 7 minute kill on the next attempt. Our first time seeing the boss. That's unacceptable in terms of learning curve from blizz. The very same week, our 25 man took 11 attempts to kill him, mostly due to raid cooldown rotations that 10 mans can simply ignore. As in, we did not use a single raid cooldown on slashes in 10 man, were I have to stress them in 25 man or we wipe.

There are more orbs in 25 man than 10 man, so it's the same ratio to orbs to players as 10 mans. So it's not easier because we have more people to deal with it. We actually have less room to maneuver the proximity to the orbs because he is pouncing and causing fire around the room. 10 people maneuvering around the same amount of fire is a lot easier than 25, since that 7th pounce will hit a half dozen people instead of 1, maybe 2 people on 10.

I can't think of a single ability, on any fight, that's more difficult to accommodate on 10 man.

Druids are the most OP healing class right now. Every log reflects it. Only a good Disc Priest or a mastery-spec holy paladin, that's territorial of his tanks, can come close.

But you seem to have some idea what you're talking about. Ever want to chat in game, more than happy to. We're recruiting ranged dps I think. :)

We obviously do things differently in our 25 man versions of Majordomo. With 15 DPS to accommodate the Pods it was far easier than what we experienced on 10 man, but we can agree to disagree. He still only jumps 6 times and with 5 people able to nuke without worry he wasn't up long in this phase. I take it you guys don't sidestep and stack once the jumps land. And with 7 healers, we had plenty of coverage around the room to meet the "oh crap, get to the Pods!" few seconds at the beginning.



Prismatic Elixir? Hardly.

From EJ's website -

"Damage reduction from resistance at 85:

25% 195.8
40% 391.7

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-combat_ratings_level_85_cataclysm/

When Aura Mastery is activated you have roughly 400 resist to shadow, frost and fire damage abilities (that can be resisted) increasing the percentage mitigated by up to 40%. For any healer who has to deal with high raid damage bursts from one of the above mentioned types of damage this is clearly a no-brainer. Two or more holy paladins can chain this ability for increased effectiveness."

Which is hardly 90 more resist... are you insinuating that Holy Paladins are weak in the Magic Raid Damage department? Really? I do stand corrected though, they reached 65% mitigation by using Divine Guardian with the Aura Mastery. Sorry for the misrepresentation, still 40%>25%, IMHO.

ANYWAYS, this has diverged into a Majordomo 10 vs. 25 discussion which is far from the intent of the thread. You guys go on thinkin that only 25 man is legit and we'll sit over in the corner and wish to be you or somethin. LOL! Its all good, as long as everyone's havin fun then this game is doin what it's supposed to.

Have a great one guys and best of luck to everyone!

I actually wanna be YOU o.o

With 15 DPS to accommodate the Pods it was far easier than what we experienced on 10 man, but we can agree to disagree. He still only jumps 6 times and with 5 people able to nuke without worry he wasn't up long in this phase. I take it you guys don't sidestep and stack once the jumps land. And with 7 healers, we had plenty of coverage around the room to meet the "oh crap, get to the Pods!" few seconds at the beginning.

15 + 7 = 22 people.

Majordomo Staghelm is a 1 tank fight.

22 DPS/Heals means 3 tanks.

3 tanks = 2 tanks too many no matter how people are doing it, and thus doing it wrong.

Shop talk over.

We actually used 5 tanks, they just held Orbs too... /nomnom
Now get back under your bridge and wait for someone else to come along.

Its called a rotation? To make it very easy on the healers? If you guys only use exactly 10 then we did it differently than you. We used 1 tank naturally and let the TWO Arcane Mages just pewpew their brains out without having to worry about attaching to a beam. Other than that everyone but melee helped absorb a beam. Depending on how many melee you bring you can have all 24 on the beams if you want I guess.

BUT OH! You must have caught me... I don't know what I'm talking about right? ::rolls his eyes::

We actually used 5 tanks, they just held Orbs too... /nomnom
Now get back under your bridge and wait for someone else to come along.

*sigh*

08/11/2011 07:18 PMPosted by Titan

Its called a rotation? To make it very easy on the healers? If you guys only use exactly 10 then we did it differently than you. We used 1 tank naturally and let the TWO Arcane Mages just pewpew their brains out without having to worry about attaching to a beam. Other than that everyone but melee helped absorb a beam. Depending on how many melee you bring you can have all 24 on the beams if you want I guess.

Clarity is key.

Taking a beam doesn't somehow eliminate your ability to go nuts on the boss. You move a few inches, boom. That doesn't impact DPS by any means. Pretending like it does is ridiculous, because Blizzard has designed classes to allow for movement without a huge valley in DPS numbers. There's no "dealing with them." Just stand there. It's the same as the Shards of Torment from Baleroc. Stand there, DPS, move two inches to swap with someone, laugh.

08/11/2011 07:18 PMPosted by Titan

I don't know what I'm talking about right?

Okay, so since you want to argue for some Ego prize (or just to argue maybe since you first told me math was too low, then we used too many and when I say we just use a different strat then you act like it MUST be wrong) I don't really know what to tell you. Its not wrong, and its how other guilds have and do handle them as well. That two inches you seem to think is funny (I guess so you look better in someone's eyes?) is an unnecessary GCD or even just an annoyance for some who would rather Arcane Blast spam than throw a Barrage due to movement when they aren't really needed on a Burning Orb anyways? Either way, like I say, you have your way and we have ours... both work so you're not superior in your thinking.

Thanks for proving the point of misplaced arrogance, but hey man... if you're happy being leetzor on server #240 out of 241 servers in progression more power to ya! Just do me a favor next time and pick a side of the fence and stay on it. First I didn't have enough people on the orbs, now I have too many? Lil hard to understand your point that way.

So for now I think I'll keep my shop talk to Ellach, seems its a lil more poignant and worthwhile. Again, best of luck.


P.S. Apologies to Biggest for the derailment... tried to course correct, but I guess its more important to try to make me look like I am wrong or something. Heh.

Okay, so since you want to argue for some Ego prize (or just to argue maybe since you first told me math was too low, then we used too many and when I say we just use a different strat then you act like it MUST be wrong) I don't really know what to tell you. Its not wrong, and its how other guilds have and do handle them as well. That two inches you seem to think is funny (I guess so you look better in someone's eyes?) is an unnecessary GCD or even just an annoyance for some who would rather Arcane Blast spam than throw a Barrage due to movement when they aren't really needed on a Burning Orb anyways? Either way, like I say, you have your way and we have ours... both work so you're not superior in your thinking.

Thanks for proving the point of misplaced arrogance, but hey man... if you're happy being leetzor on server #240 out of 241 servers in progression more power to ya! Just do me a favor next time and pick a side of the fence and stay on it. First I didn't have enough people on the orbs, now I have too many? Lil hard to understand your point that way.

Neither of my posts at any point brought into account the number of people on orbs. The first was in regard to unclear math of raid make-up, which when looked at as posted dictated a 3 tank setup. The second post was in regards to somehow being under the belief that someone on orb duty wasn't free to "pewpew their brains out." These are things that, when discussing raid make-up and boss ability difficulty, are very much open for discussion. You wanted to "talk shop," and that's fine, but there's really no need for name calling. I didn't sit here and call you an un-knowledgeable tool, or any other form of name calling.

If you wish to take it there, by all means have at it. Can I be arrogant? Sure. Does that make me wrong? Not at all. My "side of the fence" as it were has been pretty cut and dry. People in the thread want to portray 10 man raids as harder than 25 man raids. I very openly disagree, and the idea has been proven false by at the very least the best guild our game has to offer. If the best football players in the world told me that one pair of pads outperformed the other, I'd sure listen to them.

So while you've been here to openly talk shop, what I've seen so far is poorly thrown together math and a defensive stance on something that I really never brought up, on top of the outright claim that a 10 man raid is somehow harder than a 25.

Like I said, feel free to call me names if that's how you'd like to "end" the discussion, I'm fine with that, but my "arrogance" never took that route.

Good day to you sir.

Did I hit a nerve... cause I don't see any name calling? Did I sting with the misplaced arrogance? or "leetzor"? I'm having trouble seeing the slander, especially since you agreed to the arrogance.

So, lets talk facts since you seem to want to say mine are wrong.

* 10 mans harder than 25's - I don't remember ever saying that 10 mans are harder than 25. I believe I've said that I find the cramped/lack of space more troublesome in 25 mans than the issues in 10 man, but both have their issues and both are worthy of a feeling of accomplishment.

* I can't count? - My math was never off, you were in your assumption. Thats really as far as that one goes.

* Talking shop - This is usually something that is more about people coming together to express different ideas on how to approach a project (in our case raids). Talking shop is not trying to discount someone else in a vain effort to score epeen points. Read your initial and following post and tell me thats not what you were doing. If you still feel so, we'll agree to disagree here and I'll let anyone else reading these posts (if there is any) make their own decision.

* But Paragon said 10's were easy! - Yes they did, AFTER they had already been geared out of 25 man Hardmodes. As I expressed earlier, there is QUITE a difference from both the amount of gear you get, the available classes and availability of those classes in a 25 man guild vice a strictly 10 man guild. So, I find your analogy a bit off base. Its more about the limited resources of the average 10 man guild than how difficult the best 25 man guild feels when they approach it. Both ain't apples as they say.

You can try to belittle or degrade 10 mans as unworthy, but I don't agree with the scoffing. They're different worlds and I see both of them all the time. If I've offended your fragile skin, I do sincerely apologize in a limited sense. I'm not here to slander anyone or do anything but lend to what was a nice constructive conversation. That said, a wise ole guy I know always said "don't come in swingin if you don't wanna get hit", so this may be a place where we drop the dukes and talk some real shop?

I haven't really considered myself a real raider since BC days. That's where I put the majority of my time in. We were half an hour early, we always had our own potions, elixirs, flasks, food buff, scrolls, prepared for the chance of a drop with gems, enchanting mats and you weren't ever guaranteed a spot.

I raided five days a week and sometimes six, four to five hours a day non stop. I was main warrior tank for a progressive guild on one server and a healing priest for a more casual guild with my ex on another. Due to my roles, I rarely got the CHANCE to sit out. It wasn't until we downed Brutallus where I got a breather on my warrior.

PERSONALLY, I wouldn't like the idea of running with a different set of people each day. When you work with the same people frequently, you gain synergy. Arena is the same way; no synergy, you're going to goof up.

Did I hit a nerve... cause I don't see any name calling? Did I sting with the misplaced arrogance? or "leetzor"? I'm having trouble seeing the slander, especially since you agreed to the arrogance.

So, lets talk facts since you seem to want to say mine are wrong.

* 10 mans harder than 25's - I don't remember ever saying that 10 mans are harder than 25. I believe I've said that I find the cramped/lack of space more troublesome in 25 mans than the issues in 10 man, but both have their issues and both are worthy of a feeling of accomplishment.

* I can't count? - My math was never off, you were in your assumption. Thats really as far as that one goes.

* Talking shop - This is usually something that is more about people coming together to express different ideas on how to approach a project (in our case raids). Talking shop is not trying to discount someone else in a vain effort to score epeen points. Read your initial and following post and tell me thats not what you were doing. If you still feel so, we'll agree to disagree here and I'll let anyone else reading these posts (if there is any) make their own decision.

* But Paragon said 10's were easy! - Yes they did, AFTER they had already been geared out of 25 man Hardmodes. As I expressed earlier, there is QUITE a difference from both the amount of gear you get, the available classes and availability of those classes in a 25 man guild vice a strictly 10 man guild. So, I find your analogy a bit off base. Its more about the limited resources of the average 10 man guild than how difficult the best 25 man guild feels when they approach it. Both ain't apples as they say.

You can try to belittle or degrade 10 mans as unworthy, but I don't agree with the scoffing. They're different worlds and I see both of them all the time. If I've offended your fragile skin, I do sincerely apologize in a limited sense. I'm not here to slander anyone or do anything but lend to what was a nice constructive conversation. That said, a wise ole guy I know always said "don't come in swingin if you don't wanna get hit", so this may be a place where we drop the dukes and talk some real shop?

Oh man, u showed him good. You guys are on like 2 different planes; He never stood a chance! Skies is all logic-ish, and ur all angry-ish

there's so much stuff i wanna say, but im done here. good luck in ur progression.

Thread gains [Thread Kill] buff.
[Civil Discussion] fades from Thread.

"It's a wipe."

"What happened in there?"

"On-Topic face pulled Ego-Aggro and Rationality died."

"Aye, well you'll have that I suppose."

"Aye, I suppose."

Anyone wanna cast a Rez?

How bout this for a Raid expectation topic to try once again to course correct the thread...

With the addition of Seafood Feasts and Cauldrons, why do some guilds still insist on their Raiders providing their own flasks and food? I'm of the opinion that its just easier to provide them as a guild perk and it assures that everyone is fed/flasked for bosses. Is it the principle of having the Raider show responsibility?

This would be something I'd expect as a raider, but I could be wrong.

--- Some angry guy. =)

08/12/2011 12:55 PMPosted by Titan

With the addition of Seafood Feasts and Cauldrons, why do some guilds still insist on their Raiders providing their own flasks and food? I'm of the opinion that its just easier to provide them as a guild perk and it assures that everyone is fed/flasked for bosses. Is it the principle of having the Raider show responsibility?

I couldn't agree more. Though I do bring my own food and flasks on the off chance our cauldron maker and feast bringer aren't around for one reason or another. But in a 25m setting, they most likely wouldn't be an 
issue at all

While the accessibility to Cauldron and Feast recipes are guild rewards, and the chance of extra mats proc’d during the gathering process is a guild reward…

Cauldrons and Feasts themselves are not a guild reward.

These items do not just magically appear in the guild vault.

Someone must procure the materials for these items, and craft them.

Do you purchase these items with guild funds from the guild vault?

Do some members volunteer to farm the mats and donate them to the guild vault?

If donations are the sole source of these goods, is it fair that some members will dedicate time to farming while others do nothing to contribute?

If a player is brought into a raid as a replacement for a DC or for some other reason, do you throw down an entire cauldron just to give them a flask? If one player dies during an encounter, do you throw down a feast to buff that one player? (Squandering 6 fish items to buff a player that could be buffed with one single fish or meat item from his own bags)

It is reasonable to expect players to come to raid prepared. All players should come to raid with food, drink, and flasks. Some gems and enchant scrolls, or other enhancement items are nice as well, in case you get that special loot drop you have been hoping for!

We provide Cauldrons and Feasts in our raids. But that does not mean that I will waste the materials bought or gathered for raid-sized items on one lazy player. Players are indeed expected to come to raid prepared. This is reasonable, sensible, and logical.

Anything less is uncivilized.

Showing up without your own food and flasks is simply selfish. It is like saying, “Hey I am here, but I am too good to provide my own stuff for I am lazy and I am entitled to everyone else’s time and efforts outside of raid. I prefer to use others, rather than provide my own stuff”.

Chances are good that you may not need to use your own flasks, but you should still be prepared in case you do need to.

Do I buy, fish, or herb for mats to go into our Cauldrons and Feasts?

You betcha.

I am no better than anyone else in the raid, and I am responsible to show up prepared like anyone else.