World of Warcraft®

Ok. Well. To get the conversation started then, what would you all say to making a week the maximum punishment limit, and then reducing it by two days for each catagory? So for crimes in the first category, the punishment length for exile, jail, and being dead after execution would be seven days; for crimes in the second category the punishment would be five days; for crimes in the third category the punishment would be three days; for crimes in the fourth category the punishment would be one day.

On April 1st the Watch will start enforcing the laws and my suggested punishments as currently listed, unless of course there are any good changes suggested before then. Which I hope there are. :)

I'm curious how the law would deal with those who walk the shady side in the name of the Alliance, i.e., the SI:7 and my own Thorns of Darkshire (we are a SI:7 type group of rogues who RP out of Darkshire)?

For instance, every since I discovered the Shady Lady in Stormwind, I started RPing it as my little shop and my Thorns headquarters in Stormwind and contact point between the SI:7 and the Thorns.

I laugh so hard when I found it because it fit with my name and the fact that the back door open into Cutthroat Alley made me laugh harder. The empty apartment I play as MsShady's sleeping quarters when she has business in Stormwind.

MsShady RPs as a Merchant Lord as her cover. She does do shady business and sanction by the SI:7 as her agency has an alliance with them, but for the good of the Alliance as a whole. In her work she does do a lot of shady business and has many shady connections. How would such be treated if she was caught. Would the law recognize her actions as a secret agent as legit or would they consider her a criminal. Only 1 sentence for the crime of a Secret Agent gone rogue (pun intended), and that is death, usually dished out by the Agency itself.

But if a Secret Agent was caught breaking the law on the behalf of the Alliance, would it be acceptable to RP it as looking like they was punish, but secretly rush them off into hiding? Or would the local authority try to hush it up and throw a cover story for the public. Their should be a set list of rules how we deal with rogues working for "The Man" so to speak.

How much would the Stormwind Watch be let in on the secrets or would they RP being upset because they are told by those in power to squash a case that might blow the cover of a agent?

I'm asking because I am writing the rules and bylaws of my Thorns s requested by my Guild Mistress.

Hmm. The AAMS will need a large stack of permits, I predict.

I haven't really felt the need to respond to this thread before, but I've been questioned on AAMS delivery policies quite a bit the past few days (and not just because of a certain set of crates.) So, forgive me for chipping in at the last minute here. I'm not protesting this list.

OOCly, we operate on a "rule of fun" and "common sense" model, as we'd rather not hamper RP with too many rules about what we can and can't do. We're here to have fun roleplaying a courier service, not to worry about all the actual rules and regulations such a business would require, particularly the complicated ones an "international" business needs. Who wants to memorize a long set of rules just to RP?

The only rule I've been giving to couriers who ask is "nothing lethal to the recipient or the courier," a.k.a., we're not going to help you kill someone. . . or at least, help kill the person we're delivering to. (Dead people can't tip, after all! j/k)

Dangerous items, or anything from Abominus or Gentyl, we'll usually play as the AAMS doing appropriate haz-mat procedures or security measures as needed. We'll make sure to keep a set of IC permits from here on out.

RP sometimes requires us to take anonymous packages, or sealed items we can't thoroughly inspect. We don't deliberately flaunt the law; it's bad for business, and would hurt our ability to act as a neutral party. I was rather happy with how our recent delivery to Stormwind went, and our interaction with the Watch after the unsavory contents were revealed. I hope that's an indication of how future conflicts will be handled; I'm willing to have the AAMS deal with legitimate IC complications to their shipments, but not to the point where it interferes with our ability to roleplay the crazy stuff that makes being the AAMS fun. The other night was a good balance. Thank you, all, for a fun evening.

The AAMS will do its best to comply with local laws, but naturally, as has been pointed out, these particular rules only apply to the area within the Watch's control. The AAMS is happy to ship anything that is legal within the area of pickup & delivery, even if it would be considered contraband in Stormwind and its environs. We will also continue to do business with people who may be considered criminals by one set of laws but not another, for similar reasons.

The Watch is welcomed to talk to Derscha about the AAMS's activities within your jurisdiction, as she's the one responsible for Alliance deliveries.

As a final OOC note, I'll reiterate that I'm okay with having this list, as it does provide some common groundwork for RP interactions. Also, if the Watch wants to initiate any plots concerning the AAMS, I'm open to hearing ideas.

All right. Looking over this, I have a few questions:

-Do you see it as feasible (without running into international problems) to impose punishments such as military service and community service on Alliance members who do not hold citizenship with Stormwind or its surrounding territories? (i.e. Do you see it as feasible to force an Ironforge dwarf into Stormwind's military, even for a short time?)

-How does the permitting process work and how do you keep track of those who are supposed to have permits and those who don't? What about those without GHI?

-What would be the Watch's policies on matters of extradition?

-Could you clarify on 'Artifacts resulting in death/injury'? The way I read it, that could mean anything.

-Do you see this system being defined as more of a matter of common law, statutory law, or on-the-spot law? Will there be a trail system?

03/30/2012 05:46 PMPosted by Msshady

I'm curious how the law would deal with those who walk the shady side in the name of the Alliance, i.e., the SI:7 and my own Thorns of Darkshire (we are a SI:7 type group of rogues who RP out of Darkshire)?

If it's SI:7, that would be considered to be another group operating under permission of the king. The Watch and SI:7 work together, sometimes. Orwyn doesn't like SI:7 because of their methods, but their work is government sanctioned. We could do something similar with other groups working along those lines, as long as people don't all start claiming they're working for SI:7 whenever they're caught doing something wrong.

The only rule I've been giving to couriers who ask is "nothing lethal to the recipient or the courier," a.k.a., we're not going to help you kill someone. . . or at least, help kill the person we're delivering to. (Dead people can't tip, after all! j/k)

Our policy is going to be, "don't shoot the messenger." Put the responsibility on the clients to be shipping things in accordance with the law. Then if things go wrong like they did with the body parts, we can work together similar as to how we did in that case.

The only rule I've been giving to couriers who ask is "nothing lethal to the recipient or the courier," a.k.a., we're not going to help you kill someone. . . or at least, help kill the person we're delivering to. (Dead people can't tip, after all! j/k)

Our policy is going to be, "don't shoot the messenger." Put the responsibility on the clients to be shipping things in accordance with the law. Then if things go wrong like they did with the body parts, we can work together similar as to how we did in that case.

The only issue with this policy is when the AAMS members refuse to disclose the sender.

03/30/2012 10:27 PMPosted by Kyalin

-Do you see it as feasible (without running into international problems) to impose punishments such as military service and community service on Alliance members who do not hold citizenship with Stormwind or its surrounding territories? (i.e. Do you see it as feasible to force an Ironforge dwarf into Stormwind's military, even for a short time?)

Community service I don't *think* would be a problem. We could assume an agreement where foreign nationals were sent off to serve in their respective military.

03/30/2012 10:27 PMPosted by Kyalin

-How does the permitting process work and how do you keep track of those who are supposed to have permits and those who don't? What about those without GHI?

We weren't planning to be that formal with it. Honestly, the only way this is going to work is if people agree to work with and not abuse the system. We assume that people who want to play along and be serious criminals aren't going to commit a crime and then whip out a permit at the last minute. People with that kind of mindset aren't going to allow themselves to be caught anyway. A character saying they have a permit is simply a way for people who RP a legitimate business to conduct it without them and the Watch getting caught in a misunderstanding. We expect good RPers to say they have a permit if that's their RP, or be real criminals and try not to get caught.

03/30/2012 10:27 PMPosted by Kyalin

-What would be the Watch's policies on matters of extradition?

It's a bit tricky since there really aren't (to my knowledge) law enforcement guilds in the other kingdoms. However, we assume as a rule that criminals are extradited to the realm where the crime was committed.

03/30/2012 10:27 PMPosted by Kyalin

-Could you clarify on 'Artifacts resulting in death/injury'? The way I read it, that could mean anything.

Artifacts whose primary purpose is to cause death or injury

-Do you see this system being defined as more of a matter of common law, statutory law, or on-the-spot law? Will there be a trail system?

Statutory law. We would like to create a trial system, but that would take some additional support from the community in terms of finding judges and defense attorneys. Right now, punishments would result from OOC discussion. What's listed here would provide the framework for the discussion.

The only issue with this policy is when the AAMS members refuse to disclose the sender.

True. I know client privacy is a key part of your business. Of course, I assume you all could see how the Watch could be a bit upset about that if a particular shipment ends up blowing up half the city or something like that. :)

We should probably get together and brainstorm some kind of compromise.

It's a bit tricky since there really aren't (to my knowledge) law enforcement guilds in the other kingdoms. However, we assume as a rule that criminals are extradited to the realm where the crime was committed.

Well, I'm a bit new to this server, but I've always RPed this character as a warden. So you have Darnussus and other Night Elven territories somewhat covered.

Now if we could just have someone, or a group of people step up for Ironforge, we'd be set.

The problem with trying to instill "laws" is that you must have EVERYONE consenting to it. Otherwise, it just won't work. How far do you plan to enforce these "laws"? If someone is not part of your current RP storyline or investigation, why should they adhere to your laws as well?

Also I believe the local authority should be respected as well. Washington doesn't send it's FBI to your town waving their badges in everyone's faces saying "obey us, we work for the President!" every time a crime is committed in your small town. That's what your local police/sheriff is for. In our case we have a Ranger within our Guild who acts as the local Sheriff to Darkshire and she has never once been approach when other Guilds have come here and started interrogating our Guild members. Any group claiming to enforce the laws of the realm should first check to see if some Guild is not already RPing that role in a town and work with those people. Westfall, Goldshire & Lakeshire all have Stormwind Guards posted at them, so it makes sense there. But Darkshire has none and our Guild has fill that slot as Duskwood's protectors for some time now.

It gets a bit sticky when a Guild starts claiming to be the enforcers of the law of the realm. especially when they seem to expect other Guilds to submit to their authority. Don't think Blizzard really sanction that kinda behavior.

03/31/2012 01:40 PMPosted by Kalleesti

The problem with trying to instill "laws" is that you must have EVERYONE consenting to it. Otherwise, it just won't work. How far do you plan to enforce these "laws"? If someone is not part of your current RP storyline or investigation, why should they adhere to your laws as well?

((Perhaps for the same reason that no self-respecting RPer should overtly break things that should be considered laws in full view of guards in say, the middle of Stormwind? It would be bad RP to drain a merchant of blood while onlookers just...stare blankly and the guards do nothing. It is why criminal acts need to be done in secret, just like real criminals acts.

From what I gather, no one *has* to follow this. It is a great idea though. RPers who care about being realistic and are caught committing a criminal act would certainly love to work with this.

RP only functions through consent; OOC consent seems sort of assumed here. Illegal things should also never be overt, just as an orc shouldn't run around Orgrimmar shouting "I AM A MEMBER OF THE SHADOW COUNCIL! HAIL SARGERAS!" because that would be stupid. Yes, game mechanics prevent anything from happening but those who care about immersion would never do that.))

((Perhaps for the same reason that no self-respecting RPer should overtly break things that should be considered laws in full view of guards in say, the middle of Stormwind? It would be bad RP to drain a merchant of blood while onlookers just...stare blankly and the guards do nothing. It is why criminal acts need to be done in secret, just like real criminals acts.

From what I gather, no one *has* to follow this. It is a great idea though. RPers who care about being realistic and are caught committing a criminal act would certainly love to work with this.

RP only functions through consent; OOC consent seems sort of assumed here.))

Of course, any "good Alliance hero" would abide by the law. That goes without saying. But that what my post focused on.

((No no, be criminal...but successful criminals are...subtle?

At the same time, from what I've read, they haven't remotely implied you are forced to follow it. It is a wonderful plot tool for those who want to be involved with it.

A person *can* RP shanking someone in the middle of a busy auction house; it just isn't very realistic and lacks contextual immersion. A human mooning King Varian shouldn't be realistically possible (that is, possible to do so and not end up in the gallows). Actions result in reactions and should always be considered, just as guards would need evidence and proof against a criminal.))

As to the subject of the Stormwind City Watch being in authority within the boundaries of Duskwood, I think that until the lore is changed and Blizzard implements the return of Stormwind soldiers in should not follow under Stormwind's juristiction. It clearly states in the lore that Duskwood has been abandoned by Stormwind and left to rot. All quests that are within Duskwood as well as the NPC's comments within Darkshire clearly states this. Once Blizzard has returned the soldiers to Darkshire and the NPC's are adjusted accordingly that Stormwind's help has arrived, I feel that RPing the watch inforcing anything here really does not fit into the lore status of Duskwood. If someone was to break a law within Stormwind City, Elwynn Forest, Westfall or Lakeshire and tried to seek refuge within Duskwood then certainly the watch should investigate this and bring such person to justice but to simply patrol the area does not make lore-sense in my eyes. What do you guys think? I'm open to thoughts on this topic.

Our policy is going to be, "don't shoot the messenger." Put the responsibility on the clients to be shipping things in accordance with the law. Then if things go wrong like they did with the body parts, we can work together similar as to how we did in that case.

The only issue with this policy is when the AAMS members refuse to disclose the sender.

That's a tricky one to handle. "The customer is always right." Well, we've got two customers in any delivery: the sender and the receiver.

If I were to write the policy for AAMS there, I'd say the sender is allowed to stay anonymous unless the thing being delivered is a threat or dangerous. Another way I could see it being done is the sender will ALWAYS remain anonymous OFFICIALLY...but our couriers have a way of not always following the rules and can let something slip if they feel it's in their conscience to do so. Our managers, being the nosy and manipulative people they are <grin> might even look the other way.

There's been internal discussions of what our neutrality really means, and the general consensus goes like this: we serve anyone, for any purpose, but we still have consciences. We serve the Modas with as much loyalty as we'd serve the Razortalons or the Terra Incognita....unless the Modas (or the RT, or the TI...) are asking us to do something icky, in which case our couriers can refuse to do the job with no questions asked.

That policy also falls into the case of delivering messages that are basically call-to-arms against the Horde or the Alliance: we deliver them, but we're only the messenger, and unless otherwise stated, what's in the message is not a reflection on the AAMS' own stance in the war. Our couriers can refuse to deliver those, too, if they so choose.

In more regards to the Watch...the AAMS usually will be obeying all local laws when they do their delivering. In the name of not slowing down or blocking RP, though, sometimes rules will get broken. Sometimes its in the case of the courier not knowing what they're carrying is bad, other times the courier (or the supervisor giving them orders) might be willfully disobeying--in which case, they'd be subject to all the pertinent laws should they get caught.

I personally find it offensive that another "guild" is forcing its RP laws on us as a realm. Sure, what if you loot said items... Are you in violation then?

03/31/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Glaceaux

I personally find it offensive that another "guild" is forcing its RP laws on us as a realm. Sure, what if you loot said items... Are you in violation then?

As a person who would be ICly hated and viewed as immensely criminal by this "guild", I fail to see how this is what they are doing. Nothing is being forced on you; to take part in it, however, would certainly make the RP community more realistic. These things do not function without consent. I do not see how you are being coerced and find it baffling that people are acting like victims over a proposed RP community idea that, once again, only functions on the premise of OOC consent...

Edit: It just seems some people are overreacting to the premise.