World of Warcraft®

05/27/2011 09:50 PMPosted by Melyria

Again, considering many of my points are shared by numerous other guides and my guide was editted by one of the best Night Elf Roleplayers on this server, I beg to differ.

I've edited plenty of roleplaying guides, but that doesn't make me an authority. You know why? Because I don't work for Blizzard. All I can do is provide citations, and that's all anyone can do. And you do NOT. And that's a problem.

05/27/2011 09:50 PMPosted by Melyria

You bring up points, talking about how Night Elves use necromancy

Which I gave evidence for

05/27/2011 09:50 PMPosted by Melyria

speaking of wisps in the same breath

Which I gave a definition for

05/27/2011 09:50 PMPosted by Melyria

You say Night Elves live in nuclear families when it is confirmed in the RPG books that they do not.

Which RPG book said that night elves didn't live in nuclear families, exactly? Because the Staghelm and Edune families seem to be pretty nuclear, unless you don't know what the definition of "nuclear family" is and are just railing against it because you associate it with human culture.

05/27/2011 09:50 PMPosted by Melyria

Perhaps you should take a read through the RPG books again, all of them, instead of dismissing them as non-canon when Blizzard has openly said that they are still canon until something directly opposes them in game.

Perhaps you should provide citations for your claims, then. You're the one making a guide- you're the one so boldly presenting yourself as an authority, the burden of proof is on YOU, even though I've provided more than enough proof of my own claims. I've got all of the RPG books on PDF, and I can cross reference anything you say. Give me quotes, quests, pages, anything.

Shamans work with the spirits all the time. And not just elemental spirits. Spirits of those who have passed. Their friends, family, and ancestors. http://www.wowpedia.org/Ancestor_worship It ain't necromancy.

Fine, Oma. Here you go:

It doesn’t matter who your parents are, but it does
matter who you keep around you. Entire communities raise
their children together, forming long and lasting bonds, until
everyone is related in spirit to everyone else. Night elves do
not traditionally marry, but they do take companions for life.

127, Alliance Player's Handbook.


Edit: And I will not cite every single damned thing I say just for you. I've given enough information that having to backtrack will take hours. At that point demanding citation would be more harassment than any attempt to improve the guide.

What conclusive evidence have you provided, Omacron? All I've seen is long-shot interpretations based on pure semantics being presented as material fact.

05/28/2011 08:47 AMPosted by Looped

Shamans work with the spirits all the time. And not just elemental spirits. Spirits of those who have passed. Their friends, family, and ancestors. http://www.wowpedia.org/Ancestor_worship It ain't necromancy.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/necromancy

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dead

What's the first definition of necromancy and how does the dictionary definition of dead differ from talking with spirits of those who have passed, ergo, those who are dead?

If talking to the dead ain't necromancy, then what is it? I think that people are thinking that all necromancy is evil, therefore shaman's wouldn't do anything evil, so it can't be necromancy. Necromancy isn't evil, just like guns aren't evil. It's a tool and the tool is only as evil as the person who uses it.

When you're dealing with necromancy in warcraft, you actually have to address necromancy in Warcraft. Given the information we have from WoWpedia, and the "Schools of Arcane Magic - Necromancy" book that Melyria posted earlier, it's clear that in Warcraft, the definition of necromancy materially differs from divination.

Fine, Oma. Here you go:

It doesn’t matter who your parents are, but it does
matter who you keep around you. Entire communities raise
their children together, forming long and lasting bonds, until
everyone is related in spirit to everyone else. Night elves do
not traditionally marry, but they do take companions for life.

127, Alliance Player's Handbook.

And yet I've provided plenty of evidence for individuals caring a great deal about their "nuclear" family. When 4.2 goes live there's an entire questline about a night elf druid who wants revenge on Malfurion because her husband died, and Fandral is a major villain precisely because of the death of his son. If night elves did not have a concept of nuclear family, they would not harp on about it. There are also plenty of elves who, well, live in nuclear families: mother, father, and children. It's entirely probable that said information has been retconned or disregarded by Blizzard, which is why I challenged it in the first place. One thing I don't think you realized is that newer lore takes precedence over old lore: a lot of what we know was correct, say, when WCIII came out. Hell, I'd even say that your RP guide would be pretty accurate if night elf lore did not change at all for WoW. But it did (and for the record, I'm not particularly HAPPY about a lot of the changes), and so your guide is unfortunately wrong.

Edit: And I will not cite every single damned thing I say just for you. I've given enough information that having to backtrack will take hours. At that point demanding citation would be more harassment than any attempt to improve the guide.

Then don't do it for me. Do it for the people who come to your guide for help. I'm frankly amazed how you want to help people RP "correctly", in your view, but don't want to actually back up your claims. If you're going to instruct people how to RP, especially when you start making extremely esoteric claims such as "men are domestic" or "night elves have a mostly vegetarian diet", you need to back that up.

05/28/2011 10:38 AMPosted by Kyalin

When you're dealing with necromancy in warcraft, you actually have to address necromancy in Warcraft. Given the information we have from WoWpedia, and the "Schools of Arcane Magic - Necromancy" book that Melyria posted earlier, it's clear that in Warcraft, the definition of necromancy materially differs from divination.

But it's obvious that that book only discusses necromancy that is arcane in origin. We've got plenty of evidence of necromancy that's of voodoo and divine origin, and possibly even shamanic. That book is, first and foremost, presented as a piece of in-game lore from in-universe characters, not an omniescent third person, and even before it came out we've had plenty of examples of non-arcane undead and even more of simple necromancy being talking to spirits, or are you insisting that Warcraft's definition of "necromancy" has absolutely nothing to do with the real world one?

What's the first definition of necromancy and how does the dictionary definition of dead differ from talking with spirits of those who have passed, ergo, those who are dead?

If talking to the dead ain't necromancy, then what is it? I think that people are thinking that all necromancy is evil, therefore shaman's wouldn't do anything evil, so it can't be necromancy. Necromancy isn't evil, just like guns aren't evil. It's a tool and the tool is only as evil as the person who uses it.

When you're dealing with necromancy in warcraft, you actually have to address necromancy in Warcraft. Given the information we have from WoWpedia, and the "Schools of Arcane Magic - Necromancy" book that Melyria posted earlier, it's clear that in Warcraft, the definition of necromancy materially differs from divination.

I'm okay with both of these interpretations when applied to Shamans' work with the deceased, and it's actually very interesting to look at it like that!

While it may be canon in the game as to what necromancy is and is not, there's no harm in discussing the broader term of necromancy beyond what the in-game textbook provides too in a more "casual" sense. Which individual Shaman chooses to understand and accept the term "necromancy" as a "technical" (by general definition) term that applies to their work is up to them. Some won't, some might, who knows?

Speaking from my Shaman character's perspective, she has a sound idea on what necromancy is, and it's not a good one - like many, she associates necromancy with all that lovely dark-and-evil nonsense. She's reasonable, though, that if someone were to calmly and politely explain a more broader view of necromancy as a term, she might agree that her work COULD be considered "necromancy" - but she would still rather, and never, call it that.

Are you insisting that Warcraft's definition of "necromancy" has absolutely nothing to do with the real world one?

I am insisting that they are materially different, yes, especially when we provide the context of what an average Night Elf's opinion on Necromancy, I'm assuming as defined by the game, and not a real world dictionary they they could not have ever read, would be.

05/28/2011 04:03 PMPosted by Kyalin

Are you insisting that Warcraft's definition of "necromancy" has absolutely nothing to do with the real world one?

I am insisting that they are materially different, yes, especially when we provide the context of what an average Night Elf's opinion on Necromancy, I'm assuming as defined by the game, and not a real world dictionary they they could not have ever read, would be.

But that's the problem. You're assuming. You should not assume in a guide- or at the very least, you should clearly mark your assumptions so that people new to RPing don't automatically take your assumptions as fact.

It's a fact that some night elves have the ability to manipulate the souls of the recently slain. Whether or not you want to accept that's "necromancy" by any definition is up to you. But saying that, for instance, night elves who become undead would commit ritual suicide is absolutely baseless. Now, if you were to provide an example of ANY night elf undergoing ritual suicide, living or undead, I might see your point... but you don't. Regardless of how obtuse my points are, at the very least I provide the raw evidence and allow people to draw their own conclusions from the same canon lore as I do. You do not, and that is the main problem I have with your guide.

05/28/2011 05:41 PMPosted by Omacron

I am insisting that they are materially different, yes, especially when we provide the context of what an average Night Elf's opinion on Necromancy, I'm assuming as defined by the game, and not a real world dictionary they they could not have ever read, would be.

But that's the problem. You're assuming. You should not assume in a guide- or at the very least, you should clearly mark your assumptions so that people new to RPing don't automatically take your assumptions as fact.

It's a fact that some night elves have the ability to manipulate the souls of the recently slain. Whether or not you want to accept that's "necromancy" by any definition is up to you. But saying that, for instance, night elves who become undead would commit ritual suicide is absolutely baseless. Now, if you were to provide an example of ANY night elf undergoing ritual suicide, living or undead, I might see your point... but you don't. Regardless of how obtuse my points are, at the very least I provide the raw evidence and allow people to draw their own conclusions from the same canon lore as I do. You do not, and that is the main problem I have with your guide.

Well, first, if you're quoting me, it's not my guide. :)

Second, I'm not going to defend the ritual suicide comment, but I would see where the average Night Elf (heck, where the average person of any race, excluding trolls and undead) would be uncomfortable around, or have trouble accepting, Ebon Knights and Necromancers.

Night elf rogues all look the same. I apologize, however.

What I intended to do was simply to provide an example of necromancy in night elf society to show that in some circumstances it was permitted, not necessarily embraced. Plenty of people have plenty of reasons to be uncomfortable around the undead and necromancers, but the original guide made it out to be like night elves could barely be in the same room as a death knight without trying to murder it, when that's just clearly not the case.

Kaldorei Death Knights are pariahs, even more so than human death knights. Night Elves revere nature and undeath is at odds with nature. The vast majority of Night Elves would likely shun or even act hostile toward a Night Elf who is undead. The death knight itself is likely even more bitter and self loathing than usual. I would not count it out that there was a mass suicide of Night Elf death knights after their freedom, many not even wanting to continue on in such a state.

Nowhere do I say that they would be killed on sight. I said they would be treated in a hostile manner, shunned and shunted around. I also said that it would be a great shame to be an undead.

You seem to take whatever I say and take it to the enth degree just so that you can feel like I'm speaking in extremes and can be offended. Take it somewhere else. You've spent a total of 6 pages doing nothing but being an antagonist.

05/28/2011 11:05 AMPosted by Omacron

And yet I've provided plenty of evidence for individuals caring a great deal about their "nuclear" family. When 4.2 goes live there's an entire questline about a night elf druid who wants revenge on Malfurion because her husband died, and Fandral is a major villain precisely because of the death of his son. If night elves did not have a concept of nuclear family, they would not harp on about it. There are also plenty of elves who, well, live in nuclear families: mother, father, and children. It's entirely probable that said information has been retconned or disregarded by Blizzard, which is why I challenged it in the first place. One thing I don't think you realized is that newer lore takes precedence over old lore: a lot of what we know was correct, say, when WCIII came out. Hell, I'd even say that your RP guide would be pretty accurate if night elf lore did not change at all for WoW. But it did (and for the record, I'm not particularly HAPPY about a lot of the changes), and so your guide is unfortunately wrong.

Communal raising does not mean you no longer have a mother or father. Perhaps you should realize what communal upbringing means. It doesn't mean that the parents give up their child to some mass pool of offspring. The children still live and are taken care of by their parents in a semi-nuclear manner. However, the entire community is also present to take care of the child as if they were blood relatives. This means, essentially, that the community is a singular family, with your mother and father being a second family within that family.

As such, my guide is not wrong. You still have parents, they still love you, but you also have a massive, non-blood related family that takes care of you and loves you.

Again, to reiterate, this allows examples to happen like Fandral, because this model of parenting does not exclude the need for the actual parents.


Edit: You still avoid the fact that this was clearly put into the Night Elf section of the Player's Guide. And you missed it. Sorry, but perhaps you need to read the RPG books again. Newer lore does overtake older lore but that in no way means you can dismiss the entire RPG book series.

Double Edit: In real life Necromancy is very simply Divination (mancy) through the dead (necro). You do not control the dead. You speak to the dead because in cultures that had necromancy, the dead were free to travel anywhere and were privy to information that the living could not have. Therefore, you would use Necromancy, speaking with the spirit and attempting to make it give up the location of something you wanted. Necromancy in real life has nothing to do with controlling the dead. It is actually more in line with what you claim shamans do, communing with the spirits.

Bump

*gets popcorn* That was an interesting read.

I think this is a nice guide and Mel put a lot of thought into it. Yeah, there are some things I will outright disagree with, but it is, indeed, a guideline, not a bible. If someone doesn't follow their Night Elf to this tune it doesn't make them a purple human. It's a player made guide, nothing more. Good job, Mel, I'm sure this will help some beginners get into the kaldorei lore.

*gets popcorn* That was an interesting read.

I think this is a nice guide and Mel put a lot of thought into it. Yeah, there are some things I will outright disagree with, but it is, indeed, a guideline, not a bible. If someone doesn't follow their Night Elf to this tune it doesn't make them a purple human. It's a player made guide, nothing more. Good job, Mel, I'm sure this will help some beginners get into the kaldorei lore.

Its a take on the culture. In the opening I do state that there are more adventurerous and non-traditional elves, to some degree. But to be non-traditional or liberal you do still have to know where your race sits on issues.

I'm sure males had a strong part in the military forces as well. Back in the War of the Ancients during the first summoning of the Legion wasn't the commander of the Night Elven army a male? A Shadowsong if I'm thinking the right thing. And I'd say if they weren't part of the army, there was also a huge number of males in the Highborne and then only some as artisans.