World of Warcraft®

The RPG books clearly state that the Avatar of Vengeance is -not- undead, nor are the spirits it raises. Both are emotions given physical form, the desire for vengeance taking on the form of a Kaldorei.

05/27/2011 07:59 PMPosted by Melyria

The RPG books clearly state that the Avatar of Vengeance is -not- undead, nor are the spirits it raises. Both are emotions given physical form, the desire for vengeance taking on the form of a Kaldorei.

WoWpedia also states, regarding the SPIRITS of Vengeance (not the avatars), "Unlike avatars, a Spirit of Vengeance contains bits of humanoid soul mingled with the vengeance energy". That's necromancy, controlling the souls of the dead.

Since I don't trust WoWpedia when its statements are uncited, I'm going to head into my office and boot up my desktop where I have my PDF files saved for the RPG. I'll come back to you and let you know if that's correctly cited or not.

05/27/2011 08:10 PMPosted by Omacron

"Unlike avatars, a Spirit of Vengeance contains bits of humanoid soul mingled with the vengeance energy"

How much? What exactly does this soul do? Manipulation of the a spirit does not mean necromancy in WoW's terms. Shaman manipulate spirits all the time and druids do from time to time.

Necromancy, by WoW's standard is connected to Fel Magic. What trolls do with their potions is not necromancy. What shamans do is not necromancy. What Death Knights do -is- necromancy.

What Warden's Avatar of Vengeance is is spirit manipulation and we aren't told how much of the soul is specifically used. If the spirit of vengeance requires the emotion of revenge to exist then it would need at least part of the humanoid's soul to attach it to said emotion, even just a miniscule bit.

Necromancy is the study of magic involving the dead. It is highly illegal and should be avoided at all costs. I discuss necromancy here only because it is our obligation to have a basic understanding of the magic employed by our enemies - and make no mistake, any practitioner of necromancy is your enemy. Necromancers and their followers are the enemies of all living things. Their influence must be avoided at all costs.

Necromantic magic has many functions beyond simply raising the dead. Masters of this tainted field of magic can conjure festering diseases, harness the shadows into bolts of incendiary energy, and chill the living with the power of death. Necromancy can also be used to reconstruct the flesh of undead creatures, allowing them to function again even after the foul monsters have been destroyed.

The former archmage Kel'Thuzad is perhaps the most notable example of a modern necromancer. He greatly contributed to the initial spread of the Scourge and the fall of Lordaeron. Now, Kel'Thuzad reigns as a lich from the floating citadel of Naxxramas. His ongoing existence poses an imminent threat to us all.

Just checked the APG, and the quote about Spirits of Vengeance being made up partially of souls is entirely correct (For those with the book, check page 212).

How much? What exactly does this soul do? Manipulation of the a spirit does not mean necromancy in WoW's terms. Shaman manipulate spirits all the time and druids do from time to time.

"Manipulate"? Shaman and druids commune with spirits, and more often than not, these are spirits of the elements, not spirits of the slain. When a shaman like a taunka or a goblin forces a spirit of, say, fire to do something for them... it's not a spirit of something that has died and been brought back into some form of unlife. Raising a spirit from a corpse, a ghost, is.

Necromancy, by WoW's standard is connected to Fel Magic. What trolls do with their potions is not necromancy. What shamans do is not necromancy. What Death Knights do -is- necromancy.

Er, no. By most standards, necromancy is a type of arcane magic, not fel. But it is not exclusively arcane, as evidenced by the prevalence of troll voodoo based necromancy. Or are you going to argue that Zanzil or Zalazane's zombies aren't really "undead"?

What Warden's Avatar of Vengeance is is spirit manipulation and we aren't told how much of the soul is specifically used. If the spirit of vengeance requires the emotion of revenge to exist then it would need at least part of the humanoid's soul to attach it to said emotion, even just a miniscule bit.

How would YOU define necromancy? According to WoWpedia it's simple "Death magic"... surely manipulating a freshly slain corpse in a magical manner fulfills those requirements. According to the book from Dalaran, necromancy is more than just raising the dead, surely the Spirit of Vengeance falls into that category as well. Using corpses and souls is the domain of necromancy, at least in the Warcraft universe... find me an example of someone magically manipulating a soul or corpse that ISN'T called necromancy and I'll concede my point.

05/27/2011 08:37 PMPosted by Omacron

Er, no. By most standards, necromancy is a type of arcane magic, not fel. But it is not exclusively arcane, as evidenced by the prevalence of troll voodoo based necromancy. Or are you going to argue that Zanzil or Zalazane's zombies aren't really "undead"?

They're undead, they were brought back through alchemic means, not necromancy.

05/27/2011 08:37 PMPosted by Omacron

How would YOU define necromancy? According to WoWpedia it's simple "Death magic"... surely manipulating a freshly slain corpse in a magical manner fulfills those requirements. According to the book from Dalaran, necromancy is more than just raising the dead, surely the Spirit of Vengeance falls into that category as well. Using corpses and souls is the domain of necromancy, at least in the Warcraft universe... find me an example of someone magically manipulating a soul or corpse that ISN'T called necromancy and I'll concede my point.

Shamans can cram a person's soul back into their body. They can control the spirit beasts. They can link the souls of individuals together. They can and do manipulate the spirits of others, the dead included.

What the Avatar of Vengeance does is give the slain's need for vengeance corpeal form. 'Bits' of the creature's essence come along with it. There isn't manipulation of the soul, it is manipulation of emotion.

Not to mention we've already seen that ghosts and spirits not created through necromancy are common in Kaldorei ruins and lands.

05/27/2011 08:56 PMPosted by Melyria

They're undead, they were brought back through alchemic means, not necromancy.

So does that mean that those raised by the plague of undeath weren't raised by necromancy, because the plague was developed alchemically?

05/27/2011 08:56 PMPosted by Melyria

They're undead, they were brought back through alchemic means, not necromancy.

Shaman have a fifth element, an element of life, called the "spirit of the wilds". Abilities like ghost wolf form and their spirit wolves tap into that element, just as, say, frost shock taps into the spirit of water. They work with LIFE, not death. They're not killing people for their magic, they're not using corpses or the stolen souls of others.

What the Avatar of Vengeance does is give the slain's need for vengeance corpeal form. 'Bits' of the creature's essence come along with it. There isn't manipulation of the soul, it is manipulation of emotion.

The Avatar of Vengeance isn't undead, but the SPIRITS of vengeance that are created by it are, since they contain parts of the souls of those slain. Trapping someone's soul in a spirit of vengeance is pretty clearly "manipulating" a soul.

05/27/2011 08:56 PMPosted by Melyria

Not to mention we've already seen that ghosts and spirits not created through necromancy are common in Kaldorei ruins and lands.

I never said all ghosts are created through necromancy, only that the spirits made by wardens are.

Shamans can cram a person's soul back into their body. They can control the spirit beasts. They can link the souls of individuals together. They can and do manipulate the spirits of others, the dead included.

I'm going to have to chime in here about this part. A shaman cannot "cram" a person's soul back into their body. As with any resurrection (non-necromantic in nature of course), it's merely a guidance and an opportunity for the soul to return to its body. Even regarding mechanics, a dead soul CHOOSES to return to its body in the case of a resurrection, and that's how I, and every other character capable of resurrection I know, roleplay it.
It's a healing of the body and a guidance for the soul, not a manipulation. Omacron covered the part about the spirit wolves.

05/27/2011 09:00 PMPosted by Omacron

The Avatar of Vengeance isn't undead, but the SPIRITS of vengeance that are created by it are, since they contain parts of the souls of those slain. Trapping someone's soul in a spirit of vengeance is pretty clearly "manipulating" a soul.

The article says 'bits' of the soul. Not the whole soul. Bits. How much are we talking about? Fragments? What are the purpose of these 'bits'? Were they intentionally raised or not?

The Avatar does not raise the soul of the individual, it raises their need for vengeance. As I said before, it is entirely possible these 'bits' are non sentient, which is further helped by the fact that all Spirits of Vengeance are feral and only act upon the vengeance that created them.


You've now been arguing your points with people for going on three pages now. I understand that you may think my guide is either biased or unfair but that is your opinion. The original thread was subject to heavy debate and I did end up changing a number of opinions after being shown specific source material.

You've made your points known but spending 3+ pages arguing with others will not do any good.

I want a night elf now. >.<

/palpatine

Good... good...

05/27/2011 09:11 PMPosted by Melyria

The Avatar of Vengeance isn't undead, but the SPIRITS of vengeance that are created by it are, since they contain parts of the souls of those slain. Trapping someone's soul in a spirit of vengeance is pretty clearly "manipulating" a soul.

The article says 'bits' of the soul. Not the whole soul. Bits. How much are we talking about? Fragments? What are the purpose of these 'bits'? Were they intentionally raised or not?

The Avatar does not raise the soul of the individual, it raises their need for vengeance. As I said before, it is entirely possible these 'bits' are non sentient, which is further helped by the fact that all Spirits of Vengeance are feral and only act upon the vengeance that created them.


You've now been arguing your points with people for going on three pages now. I understand that you may think my guide is either biased or unfair but that is your opinion. The original thread was subject to heavy debate and I did end up changing a number of opinions after being shown specific source material.

You've made your points known but spending 3+ pages arguing with others will not do any good.

Hopefully this debate has, if anything, proven that you really have a loose grip on the lore of the Warcraft series and I seriously hope people look at other sources beyond your guide before RPing. As I've said before, your cause is notable but your flawed execution does nothing but provide a disservice to the community. You refusal to accept you're wrong even in the face of evidence from various sources is disheartening but, unfortunately, not entirely unexpected, and I can only hope that diminishes the validity of your guide in others' eyes.

05/27/2011 09:39 PMPosted by Omacron

You refusal to accept you're wrong even in the face of evidence from various sources is disheartening but, unfortunately, not entirely unexpected, and I can only hope that diminishes the validity of your guide in others' eyes.

Again, considering many of my points are shared by numerous other guides and my guide was editted by one of the best Night Elf Roleplayers on this server, I beg to differ.

You bring up points, talking about how Night Elves use necromancy, speaking of wisps in the same breath. You say Night Elves live in nuclear families when it is confirmed in the RPG books that they do not.

Perhaps you should take a read through the RPG books again, all of them, instead of dismissing them as non-canon when Blizzard has openly said that they are still canon until something directly opposes them in game.

Edit: Since you deleted, so shall I.

Remember to up vote people.

So many deletes.